Author Topic: Theory question KoTC killing Immortals/Mantles  (Read 958 times)

Offline groinkick

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Theory question KoTC killing Immortals/Mantles
« on: April 14, 2018, 05:34:29 PM »
This is just a theory post because obviously we won't know the answer, but I thought the discussion would be interesting.

When Maeve went bad if a KoTC had cut her in half on a day other than Halloween would she A. Die permanently, and B. would the Mantle be destroyed as well?

The one reason I ask is because Bob had speculated that it was possible that Michael may have actually permanently killed a demon stating "Faith magic is really powerful" to Harry.  So if there is a possibility that Michael could ghost a demon, could he also permanently kill an Immortal, mantle and all?  Also he killed a Dragon which I suspect was more powerful than Maeve.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2018, 05:37:08 PM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

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Offline Talby16

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Re: Theory question KoTC killing Immortals/Mantles
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2018, 06:10:49 PM »
The fact that he killed a dragon who according to WOJ is semi-divine and an elemental force of the cosmos leads credence to the possibility that he could unmake a mantle under the right circumstances.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Theory question KoTC killing Immortals/Mantles
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2018, 01:50:46 PM »
I don't think Dragons and demons have mantles that are meant to pass on after they die.

Most like an "on mission" Knight could end a Fae monarch any time of the year, but their mantle would just pass on to the nearest next candidate as usual. Actually ending a mantle is probably one of those things Heaven technically has the power to do, but would be contrary to their goals to maintain equilibrium in reality.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Theory question KoTC killing Immortals/Mantles
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2018, 02:43:40 PM »
I don't think Dragons and demons have mantles that are meant to pass on after they die.

Most like an "on mission" Knight could end a Fae monarch any time of the year, but their mantle would just pass on to the nearest next candidate as usual. Actually ending a mantle is probably one of those things Heaven technically has the power to do, but would be contrary to their goals to maintain equilibrium in reality.
If either of the Queens or Mothers were to become infected, we'd probably see a mission from On High.

Offline kazimmoinuddin

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Re: Theory question KoTC killing Immortals/Mantles
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2018, 12:37:27 AM »
I always assumed that the swords were powered by a form of angelic or soul fire. Hitch has been shown to harm immortal beings.
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Offline knnn

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Re: Theory question KoTC killing Immortals/Mantles
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2018, 03:00:31 AM »
I had this WAG at some point that the Swords could actually "swallow" the power of a mantel (possibly part of the reason why they are so powerful -- they "ate" a bunch of powerful beings).   I don't remember any of the evidence for this, but it couldn't have been more than tenuous or I would remember more.

 
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Offline Lost Merlin

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Re: Theory question KoTC killing Immortals/Mantles
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2018, 12:23:17 PM »
I had this WAG at some point that the Swords could actually "swallow" the power of a mantel (possibly part of the reason why they are so powerful -- they "ate" a bunch of powerful beings).   I don't remember any of the evidence for this, but it couldn't have been more than tenuous or I would remember more.

I have issues with this even though its a WAG.  In the Dresden verse we have evidence that says you are what you eat.  I cannot imagine that TWG or TWC would allow deamon power to be absorbed by the swords. 



I like the general premise that they can kill a mantled being, but I don't think it does anything to the Mantle itself.  But the depending on the Mantle wouldn't it just regenerate the mantled beings body.

Offline WereElephant

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Re: Theory question KoTC killing Immortals/Mantles
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2018, 02:08:01 PM »
Quote
I don't think Dragons and demons have mantles that are meant to pass on after they die.

Concurred. Otherwise, the number of semi-divine entities controlling whatever it is the Dragons control would remain the same. WOJ is they've been reduced, based on only a few Dragons remaining, and no talk of replacements in the same kind.

Quote
I have issues with this even though its a WAG.  In the Dresden verse we have evidence that says you are what you eat.  I cannot imagine that TWG or TWC would allow deamon power to be absorbed by the swords.

Demon or Fallen? Demons in the DF are basically Wyld Fae animals, from what I understand. Their power, were it swallowed, wouldn't be inherently evil. Fallen power, while corrupted, would originally have come from TWG, so a sword swallowing that would basically be reclaiming and untainting Heaven's power. Not saying I buy the Sword-Devours-Power theory, but I could see it having a "purging" influence, so to speak.

Quote
If either of the Queens or Mothers were to become infected, we'd probably see a mission from On High.

Dunno about the Queens. Maeve was a Lady, and no Heaven sanctioned mission was sent that we know of. Now if Mother Winter were nemfected, I could see that kicking off multiple Armageddons and a Ragnarok.

Offline Lost Merlin

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Re: Theory question KoTC killing Immortals/Mantles
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2018, 02:30:03 PM »

Demon or Fallen? Demons in the DF are basically Wyld Fae animals, from what I understand. Their power, were it swallowed, wouldn't be inherently evil. Fallen power, while corrupted, would originally have come from TWG, so a sword swallowing that would basically be reclaiming and untainting Heaven's power. Not saying I buy the Sword-Devours-Power theory, but I could see it having a "purging" influence, so to speak.


I don't know that I would classify Demons as being just like Wyld Fae.  Demons are there to hurt and enslave to me that is inherently evil. Even Chauncy who has been polite a was still just playing the long game to get Harry over a barrel and see if he could pull him down.  Demons have shown real power in the books.  Whether you look at the one in storm front or the one Kravos summoned before GP. 

Offline WereElephant

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Re: Theory question KoTC killing Immortals/Mantles
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2018, 02:51:38 PM »
I don't know that I would classify Demons as being just like Wyld Fae.  Demons are there to hurt and enslave to me that is inherently evil. Even Chauncy who has been polite a was still just playing the long game to get Harry over a barrel and see if he could pull him down.  Demons have shown real power in the books.  Whether you look at the one in storm front or the one Kravos summoned before GP.

There are types of wasp that capture prey, paralyze it, and lay their eggs in it. The eggs will hatch, and the larvae will devour the host. Is the wasp evil? My impression is that demons like Kalshazzak (the one summoned by Sells in Storm Front) are similar - the spiritual equivalent of wild predators and parasites.

Chauncy was different. He was an intelligent demon (apparently not a Fallen) in the employ of Hell. How that works, I'm uncertain. Does Lucifer look across the so-called wild demons and recruit ones he likes? Or is there a separate class of demon that is intelligent, and therefore, truly a creature of evil nature?

Offline groinkick

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Re: Theory question KoTC killing Immortals/Mantles
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2018, 06:48:15 PM »
I have issues with this even though its a WAG.  In the Dresden verse we have evidence that says you are what you eat.  I cannot imagine that TWG or TWC would allow deamon power to be absorbed by the swords. 

The Swords have been used on Outsiders, vampires, and all sorts of evil...  Why would it eat that?  It doesn't absorb what it kills.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Theory question KoTC killing Immortals/Mantles
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2018, 10:44:08 PM »
I don't know that I would classify Demons as being just like Wyld Fae.  Demons are there to hurt and enslave to me that is inherently evil. Even Chauncy who has been polite a was still just playing the long game to get Harry over a barrel and see if he could pull him down.  Demons have shown real power in the books.  Whether you look at the one in storm front or the one Kravos summoned before GP.

There's hell demons and nevernever demons. Like, the toad dude Victor Sells was using as a hit man wasn't affiliated with hell.

Offline TheJrade

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Re: Theory question KoTC killing Immortals/Mantles
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2018, 05:04:57 AM »
I think that Demons and the entities that inhabit the Coins are entirely different creatures.  The Fallen are... FALLEN Angels.  Not Archangels like Mr. Sunshine but lesser Angels who turned their coats along with Lucifer yet survived the War In Heaven somehow.  Possibly the Coins are Heaven's version of the Phantom Zone.

The Nevernever is a great big place and is likely inhabited by all manner of unsavory critters.  Many of which no doubt have inspired human legends about Hell, but have no relation to the realm to which mortal spirits are condemned to.