Author Topic: New (I hope) Elaine Theory  (Read 8208 times)

Offline Rasins

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New (I hope) Elaine Theory
« on: March 02, 2018, 09:53:30 PM »
So, I'm listening to Cold Days, and Harry and Thomas are talking about how bad it's gotten with the Fomor.

He Thomas mentions that it's bad in cities without defenders, and he mentions Los Angeles.  Rameriez is injured so he wasn't able to defend it.

We know the Fomor are taking those with power.

Since we didn't see or hear about Elaine in CD or SG, could the Fomor have taken her?
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Offline groinkick

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Re: New (I hope) Elaine Theory
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2018, 09:59:25 PM »
Anything is possible.  My opinion though is she's involved with some pretty bad ass people, and if not allied with the Fomor she's at least dangerous enough for them to leave her alone.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

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Offline Griffyn612

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Re: New (I hope) Elaine Theory
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2018, 10:07:34 PM »
How wild would it be if Elaine was a Grey Council member?  For all we know, she was trained by Elder Gruff during her time in Summer.  If Elder Gruff is a trusted Grey Council member, and he recommended Elaine to Eb, then she could have been at Chichen Itza as one of the wizards.

So, I'm listening to Cold Days, and Harry and Thomas are talking about how bad it's gotten with the Fomor.

He Thomas mentions that it's bad in cities without defenders, and he mentions Los Angeles.  Rameriez is injured so he wasn't able to defend it.

We know the Fomor are taking those with power.

Since we didn't see or hear about Elaine in CD or SG, could the Fomor have taken her?
Seems unlikely to me.  She's very efficient at staying out of trouble (assuming she's not Kumori).  If she's making an active effort to stay ahead of the Council, she would constantly be vigilant.  Not the kind of lifestyle that lends itself to her being caught off-guard by the Fomor.

Offline forumghost

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Re: New (I hope) Elaine Theory
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2018, 11:15:14 PM »
Anything is possible.  My opinion though is she's involved with some pretty bad ass people, and if not allied with the Fomor she's at least dangerous enough for them to leave her alone.

Even if she's not actively working with them, I can totally see her selling Paranet member lists or something to be left alone. Elaine is very good at looking after herself.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: New (I hope) Elaine Theory
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2018, 11:39:16 PM »
Even if she's not actively working with them, I can totally see her selling Paranet member lists or something to be left alone. Elaine is very good at looking after herself.
That seems harsh.  She helped Harry numerous times in SK when doing so risked the wrath of a mad Lady, and she helped small time practitioners in WN that resulted in an empathy toward them that led her to helping found their organization.

Offline jonas

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Re: New (I hope) Elaine Theory
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2018, 12:36:16 AM »
That seems harsh.  She helped Harry numerous times in SK when doing so risked the wrath of a mad Lady, and she helped small time practitioners in WN that resulted in an empathy toward them that led her to helping found their organization.
Yea that's a bit evil, I've found her more just plain selfish in nature... Hidden evils? Maybe, but that still seems extreme for her character.
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Offline forumghost

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Re: New (I hope) Elaine Theory
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2018, 12:58:33 AM »
That seems harsh.  She helped Harry numerous times in SK when doing so risked the wrath of a mad Lady, and she helped small time practitioners in WN that resulted in an empathy toward them that led her to helping found their organization.

I wouldn't say 'numerous times' she helped once by deliberately using a shoddy paralysis spell, and once by holding the hedge open for him- neither of which can be reasonably traced to her.

And in WN she was involved because she was a potential target.

Rather than evil, I'd classify her as selfish/cowardly. She's willing to help, but only until she herself comes under fire- at which point she starts looking for people to throw under a bus in her place.

If the Formor approached her with a deal like "give us some names from these places and we'll leave you're town alone" I can see her taking it.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 01:00:41 AM by forumghost »

Offline jonas

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Re: New (I hope) Elaine Theory
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2018, 01:10:54 AM »
Quote
by holding the hedge open for him- neither of which can be reasonably traced to her.
Lol? she choses to hold up a hedge and it can't be traced back to her own actions...?
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Offline LordDresden2

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Re: New (I hope) Elaine Theory
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2018, 02:24:19 AM »
I wouldn't say 'numerous times' she helped once by deliberately using a shoddy paralysis spell, and once by holding the hedge open for him- neither of which can be reasonably traced to her.

And in WN she was involved because she was a potential target.

No, she was involved because she was hired to be, and it went from there.  Remember, she's taken a leaf from Harry's book in advertising her magical services.

As for her being on the Grey Council, it's possible, but I doubt it.  For one thing, she's made a long habit of avoiding the notice of and involvement with the White Council.  The Grey Council is, at the end of the day, an extension of the White Council.  It might be that not everyone in the Grey Council are official members of the White Council, but I'd bet the majority are, and she'd be hanging out very close to people who are at the heart of the Council.

Which is not to say she doesn't know some people on it (besides Harry) or hhasn't worked with them at some point.

Quote

Rather than evil, I'd classify her as selfish/cowardly. She's willing to help, but only until she herself comes under fire- at which point she starts looking for people to throw under a bus in her place.

That's too harsh, based on what we've seen.  The first betrayal of Harry was, apparently, the result of mind control, and she ran to Summer and made deals there.  Harry was captured by the Wardens and ended up with Ebenezar.  In that respect, Harry was luckier, though it probably didn't look that way at the time.  Events could have gone differently.

Elaine betrayed Harry to Aurora...but then betrayed Aurora to Harry, and that's risky.  She kept faith throughout White Night, when it would have been easy to run, too.

It could be, of course, that everything we've seen is an act or a cover, and behind the scenes Elaine is the Big Bad or working for them knowingly.  But there's no evidence for that.

My 'take' on Elaine is that she's borderline.  She's scared to death, psychically scarred by Justin, and trying hard to decide who she and what she wants to be.  Also, and I think this would shock Harry to his core...I think she's trying to live up to Harry's moral example.  She's seen what he made of his life after Justin's betrayal, and I think she's impressed on some level.  She does seem to be patterning herself after him in some ways.

Harry thinks of himself as a shady kind of guy, trying to do his best but deeply distrusting himself.  On some level, he tries to live up to Michael Carpenter's expectations, I think.  It's probably just as well, for him, that he doesn't realize that several people he knows consider him someone setting a standard they try to live up to.

Quote
If the Formor approached her with a deal like "give us some names from these places and we'll leave you're town alone" I can see her taking it.

So can I.  I can also see her frying the Fomor to a crisp it its own grease, too.  She's that close to the borderline and could end up going either way.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 02:26:20 AM by LordDresden2 »

Offline forumghost

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Re: New (I hope) Elaine Theory
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2018, 02:45:11 AM »
Lol? she choses to hold up a hedge and it can't be traced back to her own actions...?

Well yes, because the only one that knows she dod it was Harry.

So either A) Harry pulls a miracle out his butt and kills Aurora and she's in the clear or B) Aurora kills Harry, the only one that knows she helped, and she's in the clear.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: New (I hope) Elaine Theory
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2018, 02:49:10 AM »
I wouldn't say 'numerous times' she helped once by deliberately using a shoddy paralysis spell, and once by holding the hedge open for him- neither of which can be reasonably traced to her.

And in WN she was involved because she was a potential target.

Rather than evil, I'd classify her as selfish/cowardly. She's willing to help, but only until she herself comes under fire- at which point she starts looking for people to throw under a bus in her place.

If the Formor approached her with a deal like "give us some names from these places and we'll leave you're town alone" I can see her taking it.
I'm not sure what you're talking about.  She left the vulnerability in the spell she used, made sure to tell Harry so he wouldn't miss it, didn't attack at the battle, and helped him enter the hedge.  She betrayed a Sidhe she was in debt to in order to help him twice, either of which would have gotten her killed if Aurora had survived.

Sure, she lied, and endangered Harry and the world by helping Aurora, but we've seen how a debt owed to the Sidhe can be dangerous.  Harry owed Mab three favors, but she could puppet him, make him hurt himself, and get what she wanted even when he wanted to refuse.  Elaine had built up years of debt, so there's no reason to believe she could refuse without getting herself killed. 

She effectively did the same thing Harry does.  She grins and bears it while she has to, but doesn't hurt a loved one, and does the right thing in the end.

Offline groinkick

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Re: New (I hope) Elaine Theory
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2018, 05:55:31 AM »
I'm not sure what you're talking about.  She left the vulnerability in the spell she used, made sure to tell Harry so he wouldn't miss it, didn't attack at the battle, and helped him enter the hedge.  She betrayed a Sidhe she was in debt to in order to help him twice, either of which would have gotten her killed if Aurora had survived.

Sure, she lied, and endangered Harry and the world by helping Aurora, but we've seen how a debt owed to the Sidhe can be dangerous.  Harry owed Mab three favors, but she could puppet him, make him hurt himself, and get what she wanted even when he wanted to refuse.  Elaine had built up years of debt, so there's no reason to believe she could refuse without getting herself killed. 

She effectively did the same thing Harry does.  She grins and bears it while she has to, but doesn't hurt a loved one, and does the right thing in the end.

Perhaps....  I still think she could be a deep cover enemy...  She helps Harry short term but it's for a longer term goal that isn't good.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: New (I hope) Elaine Theory
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2018, 12:04:31 PM »
Perhaps....  I still think she could be a deep cover enemy...  She helps Harry short term but it's for a longer term goal that isn't good.
I agree.  I still think it's a fifty-fifty shot she's Kumori.  She could be a reluctant thrall, or a misguided recruit, or a willing participant, or a sinister mastermind.  I'm not saying she's *good*.

I'm just saying her actions, as Elaine, have not been overtly selfish and cold-hearted.  She might be both those things, but she hasn't appeared like that.

Offline groinkick

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Re: New (I hope) Elaine Theory
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2018, 07:20:01 PM »
I agree.  I still think it's a fifty-fifty shot she's Kumori.  She could be a reluctant thrall, or a misguided recruit, or a willing participant, or a sinister mastermind.  I'm not saying she's *good*.

I'm just saying her actions, as Elaine, have not been overtly selfish and cold-hearted.  She might be both those things, but she hasn't appeared like that.

Do you consider it strange from a writers point of view that such a significant person from Harry's past has played such a small role in the series?  It's his first love who he thought he'd killed who comes back and then....... gone?  It's odd to me.  Word had to have made the rounds that Dresden had been killed, and then even more waves must have been made upon his return.  She never even dropped by to see if the rumors were true.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 07:21:45 PM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: New (I hope) Elaine Theory
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2018, 11:37:49 AM »
Do you consider it strange from a writers point of view that such a significant person from Harry's past has played such a small role in the series?  It's his first love who he thought he'd killed who comes back and then....... gone?  It's odd to me.  Word had to have made the rounds that Dresden had been killed, and then even more waves must have been made upon his return.  She never even dropped by to see if the rumors were true.
Not particularly.  She's got to stay away because the Council might get suspicious if a "worked together once" acquaintance dropped everything twice to come to Chicago for a guy she "barely knows".  Especially since there was never a big funeral or a welcome back party (other than Mab's).

And remember, they knew each other for maybe four years, and that was 22 years ago (or so) for them.  They've seen each other a handful of times since then, and maybe talked on the phone about the Paranet once or twice. 

Combine their distant relationship, awkward history, and prying eyes, and there's plenty of reason for her to stay away.

But she'll be back.