Author Topic: Wild Theory.  (Read 9564 times)

Offline exartiem

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 779
    • View Profile
Wild Theory.
« on: February 18, 2018, 02:05:57 PM »
A wild theory just popped (or pooped) into my head.  Dumorne was actually Kemmler.  Theory is as follows:

Dumorne, as a warden, is in on the final battle with Kemmler.  Kemmler, realizing he was cut off from any escape, jumps into Dumorne a la Corpsetaker seconds before the kill blow is struck.  Justin, in Kemmler's body, is killed.  Justin/Kemmler retires from the wardens, retrieves Bob's skull and the rest is history.

Offline Snark Knight

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3931
    • View Profile
Re: Wild Theory.
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2018, 02:58:55 PM »
It's been suggested before. My main sticking point with that one is that in all Kemmler's time holding Bob's skull, through whatever body jumps he made, he still presented himself to Bob as the same old master, just wearing a different meat suit. Given that Bob is under the pretty clear impression Justin was just Justin, the body swap theory requires an explanation for why he'd bother deceiving his servitor spirit.

Also, I'm pretty sure by the end of his career with all the sick things he did, Kemmler would have been so twisted that he'd have a very difficult time pulling off the stern but ultimately benevolent adoptive father routine he carried off for a couple years trying to indoctrinate Harry and Elaine. Even his apprentices had pretty much gone past being able to pass as not evil-creepy-nuts in a five minute conversation even when it would have been useful to them.

Offline exartiem

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 779
    • View Profile
Re: Wild Theory.
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2018, 11:30:50 PM »
Okay, first:  Kemmler instructs the skull to keep his true identity secret.  This is the beginning of the separation of Bob and Evil Bob.  When Bob separates and suppresses the memories of Evil Bob, the memory of his old master's true ID is included.

How fast have the Warloks gone sick-o that we have seen?  A few days to maybe a couple of years?  Kemmler was unspeakably evil for over a century and still able to be active and keep off the Wardens' radars for decades at a time.  He obviously was able to moderate his behavior.

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
Re: Wild Theory.
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2018, 01:32:22 AM »
Quote
“I don’t remember very much of it.”
"Bob. You never forget anything.”
“No,”Bob said. His voice shrank into something very small. "Unless I want to, Harry.”
“You’re saying that you chose to forget things about Kemmler.”
“Or was compelled to,” Bob said.
Based on this, Bob isn't sure who had him forget Kemmler.  He just knows he forgot.

Quote
“Too late!  Whatever you have done to my thoughts, the master will not be pleased that you have meddled with his servant.” ... “Do you know how long I’ve been waiting for that?” the spirit purred, drifting back and forth over me. “Sitting there locked behind my own thoughts? Waiting for the chance to fight free? Finally, you thick-witted ogre, I get to leave your stupidity behind.”
Based on what Evil Bob said in Dead Beat, we can surmise that he knows everything Bob knows (including that DuMorne was killed).  We can also surmise that Evil Bob still thinks Kemmler is alive, and that he too doesn't know who made him forget.  Which is interesting, because you'd think one or the other would know if they did it, of their own volition or by someone else's.

It suggests that someone might have had Evil Bob suppressed, and had both versions forget why it was done.  Talk about double secret probation.

Harry clearly didn't do it. 

DuMorne-DuMorne could have, but why would he have both Bob's forget the order?  He might have wanted some but not all of Kemmler's knowledge for himself, and wouldn't want to deal with Evil Bob's attitude all the time.  But why forget the forgetting?

Kemmler-DuMorne could have, but why bother?  He would want to keep his assistant intact to continue helping him.  I could see him maybe wanting to seal the more dangerous stuff away, in case Harry or Elaine came across the skull.  But again, why forget the forgetting?  He could have easily told Evil Bob that it was a precaution.

Kemmler-Kemmler has a good reason to seal Evil Bob away.  If he knew the Council Wardens were about to catch him, he wouldn't want his secrets to be easily revealed.  But you'd think he'd put better safeguards in place to keep people away from the knowledge.  Otherwise when Bob says he doesn't recall, they'd ask him to try, and then Evil Bob would be there. 

Maybe forgetting the forgetting was an extra precaution to lower the odds that someone would ask the right thing to bring Evil Bob back?

Offline jonas

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1258
  • Surpassed Ms. Duck
    • View Profile
Re: Wild Theory.
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2018, 04:25:40 AM »
The wild theory is that Kemmler was pulling duplicates of himself from alternate realities much as MM Harry has learned from Bob, and like with MM Harry the 7th time Summons more than is bargained for... Justin was actually alternate Kemmler O.o
Quote from: A. Lanning
I'm sorry, My responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
Quote from: C Chaplin
...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.

Offline raidem

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5634
  • Duck's Apprentice
    • View Profile
Re: Wild Theory.
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2018, 01:34:42 PM »
I'm sure the White Council knows of these Parallel doubles, so they must have mobilized the entirety of wardens, wizards with fighting skills etc to take down as many doubles at once as possible.
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
Re: Wild Theory.
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2018, 05:57:59 PM »
I'm sure the White Council knows of these Parallel doubles, so they must have mobilized the entirety of wardens, wizards with fighting skills etc to take down as many doubles at once as possible.
I don't think it's been proposed that he was working with his mirrors, has it?  It was just the he was using them as bodies to fake his death.

The wild theory is that Kemmler was pulling duplicates of himself from alternate realities much as MM Harry has learned from Bob, and like with MM Harry the 7th time Summons more than is bargained for... Justin was actually alternate Kemmler O.o
Where do you get the seventh time stat?

Offline Snark Knight

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3931
    • View Profile
Re: Wild Theory.
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2018, 09:54:34 PM »
I don't think it's been proposed that he was working with his mirrors, has it?  It was just the he was using them as bodies to fake his death.

I'm not sure even the latter has been corroborated. He could as easily have been coming back from the dead by stealing new bodies like Corpsetaker was trying to as using MM Harry's body double trick.

It's tough to speculate on how Kemmler might have used the MM trick of getting one of his doubles killed in his place until we find out whether that spell finds the victim to pull across universes based on a resonance between souls or bodies. In the soul case, if Kemmler and/or his multiverse counterparts were doing fairly regular body-swaps from one living host into another (as opposed to the resurrection method of kicking a native soul out of their body) any alt-Kemmler whose current body doesn't match the current round of wanted posters is basically useless as a decoy. It works better if he's wearing Joe Smith's body and a drop of blood is enough to capture another Joe Smith, though.

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
Re: Wild Theory.
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2018, 11:46:45 PM »
I'm not sure even the latter has been corroborated. He could as easily have been coming back from the dead by stealing new bodies like Corpsetaker was trying to as using MM Harry's body double trick.

It's tough to speculate on how Kemmler might have used the MM trick of getting one of his doubles killed in his place until we find out whether that spell finds the victim to pull across universes based on a resonance between souls or bodies. In the soul case, if Kemmler and/or his multiverse counterparts were doing fairly regular body-swaps from one living host into another (as opposed to the resurrection method of kicking a native soul out of their body) any alt-Kemmler whose current body doesn't match the current round of wanted posters is basically useless as a decoy. It works better if he's wearing Joe Smith's body and a drop of blood is enough to capture another Joe Smith, though.
Sorry, yeah, emphasis on the proposed.  I thought it was still just a theory, but wasn't sure if I'd missed something.

That's assuming Kemmler switched bodies.  I don't think that's been confirmed either.  But he could probably focus a spell on body (using his host's blood) or soul (using his own) if the series is any indication. 

Offline jonas

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1258
  • Surpassed Ms. Duck
    • View Profile
Re: Wild Theory.
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2018, 02:49:35 AM »
I don't think it's been proposed that he was working with his mirrors, has it?  It was just the he was using them as bodies to fake his death.
Where do you get the seventh time stat?
Kemmler faked his death 6 times, ergo they killed him the seventh. I know MM Harry has faked his death multiple times with that method, though not the precise number. I am deducing it though, adding in other details like the number of possible futures Molly had was 6, She has a seventh too but that will be what we see of her I think.
It all goes to a higher concept theory that these 7 timelines make up the DF(I did a theory about the pentagram and timelines but nobody got that one), at least currently.
Quote from: A. Lanning
I'm sorry, My responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
Quote from: C Chaplin
...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
Re: Wild Theory.
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2018, 02:58:41 AM »
Kemmler faked his death 6 times, ergo they killed him the seventh. I know MM Harry has faked his death multiple times with that method, though not the precise number. I am deducing it though, adding in other details like the number of possible futures Molly had was 6, She has a seventh too but that will be what we see of her I think.
It all goes to a higher concept theory that these 7 timelines make up the DF(I did a theory about the pentagram and timelines but nobody got that one), at least currently.
I don't remember the timeline theory.  Any chance it's still around somewhere, or you can repost it?

Offline jonas

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1258
  • Surpassed Ms. Duck
    • View Profile
Re: Wild Theory.
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2018, 03:08:36 AM »
I don't remember the timeline theory.  Any chance it's still around somewhere, or you can repost it?
i'll prolly redue it eventually, I've been planning on getting back to work on such things some time in the future. Just busy doing other crap, really need to do a whole reread and that's planned for with the side cases release.
I doubt it's still around, it went vitriol(read:me vs the forum lol) pretty fast trying to say a pentagram touched in five places and caused 7 positive timelines... :-/ and that was before i understood the 5 changes cause 5 negative universes overlapping in the shadow... It's were hwwb4 got his memories of Dresden failing Mab.
Quote from: A. Lanning
I'm sorry, My responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
Quote from: C Chaplin
...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.

Offline Quantus

  • Special Collections Division
  • Needs A Life
  • ****
  • Posts: 25216
  • He Who Lurks Around
    • View Profile
Re: Wild Theory.
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2018, 01:06:25 PM »
i'll prolly redue it eventually, I've been planning on getting back to work on such things some time in the future. Just busy doing other crap, really need to do a whole reread and that's planned for with the side cases release.
I doubt it's still around, it went vitriol(read:me vs the forum lol) pretty fast trying to say a pentagram touched in five places and caused 7 positive timelines... :-/ and that was before i understood the 5 changes cause 5 negative universes overlapping in the shadow... It's were hwwb4 got his memories of Dresden failing Mab.
Please do, that sounds like some truly epic tinfoil!  :)
<(o)> <(o)>
        / \
      (o o)
   \==-==/


“We’re all imaginary friends to one another."

"An entire life, an entire personality, can be permanently altered by just one sentence." -An Accidental Villain

Offline MarcelRED147

  • Lurker
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Wild Theory.
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2018, 10:57:48 AM »
Okay, first:  Kemmler instructs the skull to keep his true identity secret.  This is the beginning of the separation of Bob and Evil Bob.  When Bob separates and suppresses the memories of Evil Bob, the memory of his old master's true ID is included.

How fast have the Warloks gone sick-o that we have seen?  A few days to maybe a couple of years?  Kemmler was unspeakably evil for over a century and still able to be active and keep off the Wardens' radars for decades at a time.  He obviously was able to moderate his behavior.

The first part I buy, the last paragraph I don't. He was a master of necromancy beyond corpsetaker.  He would be able to pull it off if he wanted. That said I totally buy that Bob would have known. That's the major part that makes me disbelieve this theory.

Offline exartiem

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 779
    • View Profile
Re: Wild Theory.
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2018, 02:16:36 PM »
Bob did know.  He compartmentalized the knowledge.  He created a new personality for dealing with Harry.  One that did not know that Justin was Kemmler.  This new personality became the Bob we all know and love due to Harry's ability to alter the nature of things by Naming them.  After the battle and Harry became the skull's master, Evil Bob got pushed fully into the background and Bob became the dominant personality, still never knowing that Justin was Kemmler.