What do you wish would be done MORE in urban fantasy?

[Hell's Belle]

I've noticed though that they're often the oddballs because it turns out they're part-something or other. Rarely does it seem that the teen is a normal pure bred human being. Which is what I'd like to see. A normal human, who doesn't fit in too well because they don't fit society's standards of behavior or beauty or what have you. Who turns around and saves people without any special powers, special charms, etc. Just whatever normal talents they happen to have and a bit of brain power.

Oh, I know the type of books you mean. That seems to be the popular bend for characetrs right now. I hope it ends soon. It's tiresome.

The older fiction really doesn't do that.

I thought of another one that has just a plain-Jane heroine (although she's younger- in her teens, I think): Knee-Deep in Thunder.

[JamiSings]

I thought of another one that has just a plain-Jane heroine (although she's younger- in her teens, I think): Knee-Deep in Thunder.

Yeah, I really want some adult stuff. It's not fair we keep getting left out. We can feel like freaks and oddballs too just as much as any angst-riddled teenager. Sometimes more so because teens you expect and accept it. Adults we hear "Oh get over it."

[MonaLS]

Yeah, I really want some adult stuff. It's not fair we keep getting left out. We can feel like freaks and oddballs too just as much as any angst-riddled teenager. Sometimes more so because teens you expect and accept it. Adults we hear "Oh get over it."

So I'm not the only one? I felt more comfortable as a teenager because I just wasn't aware of much beside the community I grew up in, sort of like I had blinkers on. Now I do feel like the odd one out a lot.

[The Corvidian]

Jami, ever read anything by Charles de Lint?

[JamiSings]

Jami, ever read anything by Charles de Lint?

No, but I've seen people checking out his books. I don't have time to read everything.

[The Corvidian]

No, but I've seen people checking out his books. I don't have time to read everything.

Well, if you get a chance, and a bit of time, check out some of his Newford novels. Most of his characters are not "Beautiful People". They are outsiders, and eccentrics.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I've noticed though that they're often the oddballs because it turns out they're part-something or other. Rarely does it seem that the teen is a normal pure bred human being. Which is what I'd like to see. A normal human, who doesn't fit in too well because they don't fit society's standards of behavior or beauty or what have you. Who turns around and saves people without any special powers, special charms, etc. Just whatever normal talents they happen to have and a bit of brain power.

Fair enough, but there has to be some reason why the story is happening to this protagonist in particular rather than some other random person; they have to be "special" at least at that level, and if you rule out oddities of origin or special powers in order to make them more normal, what then would work for you to make them stand out to the extent of attracting an actual Story rather than just having a life ?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Well, if you get a chance, and a bit of time, check out some of his Newford novels. Most of his characters are not "Beautiful People". They are outsiders, and eccentrics.

For values of "outsiders and eccentrics" that translates as "we are Special Significant People because we Make Art" a bit more often than I am entirely comfortable with, fwiw.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Yeah, I really want some adult stuff. It's not fair we keep getting left out. We can feel like freaks and oddballs too just as much as any angst-riddled teenager. Sometimes more so because teens you expect and accept it. Adults we hear "Oh get over it."

I don't know, I think part of being adult is to accept that everybody feels like an oddball or an imposter at some point and that this is a universal part of the human condition, there's no magic key to make it go away,and to do what we can to be kind to people having moments of insecurity.

On something closer to topic, have you read The Iron Dragon's Daughter by Michael Swanwick ? It's a very weird fantasy about an orphan girl working in a Dickensian-type factory that builds mechanical dragons; not a nice book, but a remarkably good one which I would be interested to see your take on.

[JamiSings]

Fair enough, but there has to be some reason why the story is happening to this protagonist in particular rather than some other random person; they have to be "special" at least at that level, and if you rule out oddities of origin or special powers in order to make them more normal, what then would work for you to make them stand out to the extent of attracting an actual Story rather than just having a life ?

Well, the Die Hard movies proved you can just have the "wrong place, right time" senerio work.

A person doesn't need to have special powers to just walk into the wrong alley and get the wrong kind of attention. People in the real world all the time suddenly find themselves witnessing murders, saving people from murderers/thieves/rapists, jumping on top of people who are having seizures and have fallen on subway tracks, etc. Why can't an ordinary person walk in on a vampire or werewolf attack and actually manage to save the victim? Therefore attracting unwanted supernatural attention the same way someone who's witnessed a mafia crime attracts their unwanted attention.

Could you imagine what a supernatural witness protection would be like?

[Hell's Belle]

Well, the Die Hard movies proved you can just have the "wrong place, right time" senerio work.

A person doesn't need to have special powers to just walk into the wrong alley and get the wrong kind of attention. People in the real world all the time suddenly find themselves witnessing murders, saving people from murderers/thieves/rapists, jumping on top of people who are having seizures and have fallen on subway tracks, etc. Why can't an ordinary person walk in on a vampire or werewolf attack and actually manage to save the victim? Therefore attracting unwanted supernatural attention the same way someone who's witnessed a mafia crime attracts their unwanted attention.

Could you imagine what a supernatural witness protection would be like?

Die Hard movies. You can't use Die hard movies to prove your point. I love them, but let's face it- models of reality, they are not. They're an excuse to blow things up in more creative ways, and use a main character as a continuing thread in the story, to tie all those fireballs together.

An ordinary person doesn't save the victim.  Ordinary people most often ARE victims; so it stands to reason that if they save someone, they have a quality that is extraordinary to begin with.

Most stories have vamps and werewolves being pretty fierce, frightening and strong, so unless the person is one of those gifted with preternatural abilities, it's not often going to happen that they can take them on and save a victim from the big bad.  Part of the inherent scariness about monsters like that is that it knocks humans back down a rung on the food chain, and the potential hunter turns into the potential prey.

So an ordinary person most likely isn't going to be a hero. The hero is going to be someone with a lot of luck. Lots of bravado and smarts, but definitely lots of luck.

[JamiSings]

An ordinary person doesn't save the victim.  Ordinary people most often ARE victims; so it stands to reason that if they save someone, they have a quality that is extraordinary to begin with.

How about extrodinary compassion for other people? The willingness to risk their own life for a stranger simply because "It's the right thing to do"? There's ordinary people who do this in the real world. There's absolutely no reason it can't work in a fantasy novel. Sure, maybe they luck out and pick up an old iron pipe to hit the fairy in the head with, or a broken piece of wood that hits the vampire right in the heart. Or perhaps they have a talent like I suggested before - they're able to sing a werewolf to sleep simply because they're such a talented singer. All without having to be anything more then an ordinary human.

[Hell's Belle]

How about extrodinary compassion for other people? The willingness to risk their own life for a stranger simply because "It's the right thing to do"? There's ordinary people who do this in the real world. There's absolutely no reason it can't work in a fantasy novel. Sure, maybe they luck out and pick up an old iron pipe to hit the fairy in the head with, or a broken piece of wood that hits the vampire right in the heart. Or perhaps they have a talent like I suggested before - they're able to sing a werewolf to sleep simply because they're such a talented singer. All without having to be anything more then an ordinary human.

Extraordinary compassion is fine when looking at pictures of starving and homeless puppies. It doesn't save someone from being mugged or worse in an alleyway. The best compassion can do is get someone moving, to do something. The emotion, in and of itself, isn't going to do the job.  A person has to have some sort of way of overcoming the foe, and they may be spurred on by their compassion, but they'd better be able to kick butt, whip out a weapon, or be able to holler for help.

I don't buy the singing to sleep thing while the werewolf is in the middle of attacking/chomping down on a 'meal'.  That requires a suspension of disbelief that's beyond what most readers are willing to give. It may work in RPGs or Anime cartoons, but I don't see that ability (which, by the way, makes that person above an ordinary individual) working for that particular situation. Even the legends that base the singing soothing the savage don't try it while the critter is attacking.

[JamiSings]

Well I say that if an author wants to make it work an ordinary person CAN defeat the bad guys and it's boring and over-done to have them turn out to be half fairy or half vampire or whatever. I'm sorry you disagree but it CAN BE DONE.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Well I say that if an author wants to make it work an ordinary person CAN defeat the bad guys and it's boring and over-done to have them turn out to be half fairy or half vampire or whatever. I'm sorry you disagree but it CAN BE DONE.

Have you any examples in mind ?

I'm not claiming it can't be done, I'm just not easily seeing how. And by that, I don't just mean ideas for how it could work, I mean stories where it's been done convincingly.