Author Topic: Cold Days: Attack on Demonreach  (Read 9184 times)

Offline raidem

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Re: Cold Days: Attack on Demonreach
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2018, 05:31:41 PM »
This is what set the discussion up.  Multiple arguments ensued.

Quote
[4:06 AM] Godslayer: So has anyone put forth the theory that the attack on Demonreach in Cold Days was an attempt at a superpowered Darkhallow rite?
[4:16 AM] khadgar567: i can go with that
[4:16 AM] Godslayer: Of course, that begs the question: Who was looking to cash in on it?
[4:16 AM] khadgar567: as you are sacrifacing bunch of outsiders to empower your self instead of ghosts
[4:17 AM] Godslayer: Yeah, I imagine you'd be the most powerful being on earth if you pulled it off
[4:18 AM] khadgar567: lets not forget you are drawing outsiders across time to fuel the ritual not just presint time
[[4:19 AM] Godslayer: one thing I'm amazed about Harry not bringing up is: where the hell did all of the outsiders in Cold Days come from?
[4:20 AM] khadgar567: so there is third party going on in the cold days
[4:21 AM] khadgar567: and i bet they attack in peace talks to as nearly all big wigs in setting are in the same location same time
[4:22 AM] khadgar567: its kinda begs to be  exploited by some one
[4:23 AM] khadgar567: fall out would be epic as rapid change of managment and desire to get blind revenge will open huge oppurtunity to pop a dark hallow cap on whole cast
[9:33 AM] -EG-: The Darkhallow took a lot of prep time and very specific acts of Necromancy to prepare the intended recipient to be around that vortex. And the energy that was going to 'destroy' DR and set everything loose was set to hit on November First, not Halloween. The opportunity to take in that kind of power would have no longer applied.(edited)
[9:39 AM] Vicissitude: Hmm, that's a bummer.
[9:39 AM] Vicissitude: Though it is a work of fiction. I'll bet Jim could have found a loophole :v
[9:42 AM] -EG-: Jim is certainly creative, but his rules and world tend to stand up to itself well. Which is definitely one of the reasons why it's a popular series. Harry gets a creative loophole because he's the main character. And even those are within parameters.
[9:44 AM] raidem: When it comes to the exact date it really doesn't depend on Earth's calendar
[9:44 AM] raidem: It depends on the Cosmic Halloween
[9:46 AM] raidem: I mean we have an inexact calendar as it is, with a leap year added to the calendar to adjust it to be more accurate reflection of Earth's orbit around the sun
[9:46 AM] raidem: So, I'd say it was still Cosmic Halloween
[9:47 AM] Vicissitude: Yeah, like the bloodline curse wasn't literally at midnight on that night
[9:47 AM] raidem: the conjunction was still active
[9:47 AM] raidem: And Maeve and Lily DID die
[9:47 AM] Boustrophedonic: Harry gets some loopholes and wiggle room because he's literally a cosmic monkey wrench in the war against the outsiders
[9:47 AM] raidem: so that proves Cosmic Halloween was enforced
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 05:34:28 PM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
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Offline raidem

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Re: Cold Days: Attack on Demonreach
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2018, 05:37:39 PM »
You don't have to install it.  You can just see it through your browser.  You will need to establish a email and password associated with it I think.  You can I think use a guest account too.

https://discordapp.com/invite/fwZ7RJy
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
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Offline Kindler

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Re: Cold Days: Attack on Demonreach
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2018, 06:04:32 PM »
Ah, okay, that context explains the hair-splitting then. Some take quantum foam-sized items of minutiae as a hill to die on (not saying your'e one of them, Raidem), so I had kind of figured it was something like that. I retract my previous sarcasm.

Offline Quantus

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Re: Cold Days: Attack on Demonreach
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2018, 06:07:14 PM »
OK, this is one of those topics that long warped my brain but eventually I came to an explanation I liked, though it does require an unproven assumption of the Nature of Demonreach.  But without it, there does not appear to be any need to involve Chronomancy at all, which ultimately is what foiled the plan by forewarning Harry&co.

I think Maeve's plan was to trigger the Banefire on Nov. 1st, but the Trans-Dimensional Nature of Demonreach required her to "toss the rock" from Oct.31. 

We know Demonreach is a prison in Time as well as Space, so Here's the Assumption:  Demonreach traps the inmates in a Perpetual Halloween.  They are in "Stasis" and vulnerable, with the Banefire hanging over them (like a more literal Doom of Damocles, ironically), which is what it would take for the Banefire to actually kill them as Vadderung initially described.  So if Maeve wanted to actually launch an attack on the Well itself (the magical construct) she could only reach it in Space&Time from the Island on the actual Day.  However, then she is setting off a Nuke that she happens to be standing on, which is suicidal for all involved.  This is why a Trans-temporal attack was required, it acted as a delay.  But had she simply lobbed the attack from November 1st it could have hit the island but would not have "reached" the Well itself.


Support:

-Per Bob/Alfred the Well is a Prison in Time as well as Space, and maybe even higher dimensions (ie parallel worlds?)

-The British Inmate raves about the inmates being in "Stasis" and how the presence of the Warden "Buggers that up entirely."  This could be taken to mean that the inmates only experience the passage of time in the direct presence of the Warden.  Functionally it would make sense for the Well to go out of it's way to facilitate interaction since it's the Warden's responsibility to Determine if they should ever be Released. 

-Vadderung indicated that the Inmates would not survive the Banefire.  But Maeve (and Harry) were talking like they assumed the inmate's would survive.

-The Chronomantic nature of the attack itself was a huge tactical liability without any other (obvious) benefit.



Counter-argument:  The main counter to this idea is that holding the inmates in perpetual Halloween could be MORE dangerous rather than less.  For the same reason that some Immortals go out and Play on Halloween while others hide, they are more vulnerable on Halloween but it is also the only day they are capable of Change enough to gain new Power.  This is not so much an argument for why it would not work as it is one side of in-world the Risk Assessment that the Well's designer(s) likely had. 
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Offline raidem

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Re: Cold Days: Attack on Demonreach
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2018, 06:15:27 PM »
I'm thinking on this...
I can post more of the discussion too.
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« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 07:15:39 PM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline raidem

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Re: Cold Days: Attack on Demonreach
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2018, 06:34:03 PM »
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voc.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 07:28:51 PM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline kazimmoinuddin

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Re: Cold Days: Attack on Demonreach
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2018, 07:26:01 PM »
I think that the bane fire would wound the immortals enough to allow them to be consumed by nemesis and their allies. Or at least be co opted by the enemy.
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Offline raidem

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Re: Cold Days: Attack on Demonreach
« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2018, 07:29:24 PM »
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I think Maeve's plan was to trigger the Banefire on Nov. 1st, but the Trans-Dimensional Nature of Demonreach required her to "toss the rock" from Oct.31. 
Even if this is the plan, you have to prove that Nov 1st when the banefire is triggered isn't Halloween (cosmic Halloween).  (Bob tells Harry he has until the first natural birdsong in the morning of 11/1 which signals the end of Halloween.)  Otherwise, the date doesn't matter. It's Halloween in both cases.

We have to ask ourself.  Assuming Bob's model is correct, The Banefire will go off 'by tomorrow' November 1st.  Will the banefire go off on the Halloween part of Nov 1st or the nonHalloween part of Nov 1st.  It decides the issue of whether the Prisoners can be released as immortals vs. mortals.  If they are mortals, then the banefire kills them and whatever power/mantles they have go up for grabs.  If they are released as immortals, the banefire hits them hard but survive in some state to wreak havoc.
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline groinkick

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Re: Cold Days: Attack on Demonreach
« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2018, 07:46:41 PM »
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Even if this is the plan, you have to prove that Nov 1st when the banefire is triggered isn't Halloween (cosmic Halloween).  (Bob tells Harry he has until the first natural birdsong in the morning of 11/1 which signals the end of Halloween.)  Otherwise, the date doesn't matter. It's Halloween in both cases.

We have to ask ourself.  Assuming Bob's model is correct, The Banefire will go off 'by tomorrow' November 1st.  Will the banefire go off on the Halloween part of Nov 1st or the nonHalloween part of Nov 1st.  It decides the issue of whether the Prisoners can be released as immortals vs. mortals.  If they are mortals, then the banefire kills them and whatever power/mantles they have go up for grabs.  If they are released as immortals, the banefire hits them hard but survive in some state to wreak havoc.

Bob knows that Halloween is a time that can kill Immortals...  There may be other ways...  Bane fire may be one of those ways.  The time of year might not matter if a Bane fire self destruct goes off.

Maeve probably chose that time because she knew that Mab would be vulnerable on that day to take her Mantle....  Nemesis may have fooled her into setting off the self destruct by leaving that little part out when she was influenced into thinking she should destroy the island.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline raidem

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Re: Cold Days: Attack on Demonreach
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2018, 07:56:52 PM »
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Bob knows that Halloween is a time that can kill Immortals...  There may be other ways...  Bane fire may be one of those ways.  The time of year might not matter if a Bane fire self destruct goes off.

I've thought of it too.  Still, if that is the case then it would be an operative conjunction similar to Halloween. So the argument between EG and myself would still largely be in effect.  There were many issues in play with him.  Some being my statement that many of the beings imprisoned within Demonreach had mantles/powers that could pass/consumed by others upon them dying.  He preferred a case in which they walked free not killed which is why he was insistent upon a nonHalloween Nov 1st event.  If Banefire does the same thing as Halloween, it renders his intended argument mute.

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Maeve probably chose that time because she knew that Mab would be vulnerable on that day to take her Mantle....  Nemesis may have fooled her into setting off the self destruct by leaving that little part out when she was influenced into thinking she should destroy the island.
I agree, but I think it possible Maeve knew it wouldn't or unlikely to work and therefore it would be a standoff between herself and her mom just like what happened with some flexibility built in.  To tie this into my Murphy/Mab theory, having both Mab and Murphy (or Molly per Ms. Duck) there on the island when it goes off, or Mab and Molly if you prefer Ms. Duck's theory, would make an entire history vulnerable whereby TTMurphy, TTHarry and allies never go back into the past to assist Murphy in assuming the Lady mantle... It would have unmade Maeve, Sarissa and so much of my timeline rendering our reality a complete wreck as far back as 1000+ years ago.  Truly when Sharkface (HWWBefore) says Mab would cease to be a problem, he wasn't kidding according to my or Ms. Duck's theory.

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“My boss might not go along with this plan,” I said. “After tonight, Mab will no longer be a concern to anyone.”
I've wondered before about trying to undo a TT pretzel like I've suggested.  I don't think it is as simple as taking out Murphy.  There has to be more to it than just that.  And, I think that situation on Demonreach would/could qualify.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 08:11:58 PM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline groinkick

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Re: Cold Days: Attack on Demonreach
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2018, 08:09:15 PM »
I've thought of it too.  Still, if that is the case then it would be an operative conjunction similar to Halloween. So the argument between EG and myself would still largely be in effect.  There were many issues in play with him.  Some being my statement that many of the beings imprisoned within Demonreach had mantles/powers that could pass/consumed by others upon them dying.  He preferred a case in which they walked free not killed which is why he was insistent upon a nonHalloween Nov 1st event.  If Banefire does the same thing as Halloween, it renders his intended argument mute.

This I don't know about...  Like the Skin walkers, I don't think those are Mantles, they just are..  Kind of like Vampires but much more powerful.  Most Mantles seem to be of importance, if they were locked up (Mab for example being threatened by Harry) may very well create a huge amount of damage to the structure of things.  I'm leaning towards the idea that Mantles may be locked into very specific groups.

Dragons are incredibly powerful, and important but when they die...  That's it, gone, no Mantle. 

If someone does have a Mantle, the Warden would probably kill them come Halloween to ensure that the Mantle of responsibility doesn't cause too much damage to reality, and ensure those responsibilities are fulfilled.  Like Harry could have locked up Nemesis infected Maeve in September, and then kill her on Halloween so that the Lady's Mantle returns to Winter returning balance to Summer/Winter.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 08:10:47 PM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline raidem

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Re: Cold Days: Attack on Demonreach
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2018, 08:14:19 PM »
Isn't there a WOJL on human ideas creating these entities/mantles.  And that as long as these exist in the minds of humans, they don't cease to exist.  So in this fashion, this 'mantle/mask' doesn't just disappear.  I think it needs to be assigned to Oblivion before that happens.

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Dragons are incredibly powerful, and important but when they die...  That's it, gone, no Mantle. 
But can something come along and assume the mask/mantle that is left. When I say mask/mantle I'm talking about the idea that is anchored by Human idea and thought.

The Dragons exist so long as humans know about them.  It actually starts to make sense now after reading the Amber series.  If you kill the Dragon, a shadow of the Dragon continues to exist.  Even if the world upon which the Dragon is killed is destroyed, Corwin could using a shadow of this world and all its creatures, features reanimate it into a nearly 'perfect' copy.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 08:21:18 PM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline groinkick

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Re: Cold Days: Attack on Demonreach
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2018, 08:19:58 PM »
Isn't there a WOJL on human ideas creating these entities/mantles.  And that as long as these exist in the minds of humans, they don't cease to exist.  So in this fashion, this 'mantle/mask' doesn't just disappear.  I think it needs to be assigned to Oblivion before that happens.

Well I'm saying that the Mantle being locked up on Demon Reach might still exist but it's trapped and unable to fulfill the responsibilities it has, causing damage.  So I don't know if there would be many Mantles locked up on DR, only powerful Beings.  Drakul for example I doubt is a Mantle.  Locking him up would be ok.  Mother Winter on the other hand would be devastating to reality if locked up there.  So I just don't think Mantle wearers would be locked up there, at least not any that are of importance to reality.

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The Dragons exist so long as humans know about them.

No...  Michael killed one.  It's gone.  Not returned.  There is no Mantle for it.  I am in the camp that there are those that have Mantles created by belief/ritual, and there are those that simply exist.  Dragons I believe are celestial beings that did not require belief, they simply exist.  Same for TWG, Outsiders, and others.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 08:23:33 PM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline raidem

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Re: Cold Days: Attack on Demonreach
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2018, 08:34:51 PM »
I think it was Mab's absence on Earth and her job that would do hideous things to Earth, not necessarily what she could do down below.  And, I think there might be things of Mab's weight class in the prison.

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No...  Michael killed one.  It's gone.  Not returned.  There is no Mantle for it.
I know what you are saying.  I also know about Amber and that Jim drew much material from it.  Jim also has parallel reality's within the Dresdenverse where there are likely those Dragon's alive and well.  So, I don't think it's gone in teh absolute sense of the word. And, in the Amber sense, it could be recreated since a shadow of it would be out there somewhere.

It's like Sue.  She died 60Million+ years ago. And yet, Harry was able to reach out into the 'shadows' and reach her spirit and strengthen the connection between her and her bones.  Sue's spirit being out there is very like what occurs in Amber.  The Dragon likely has this 'shadow' as well.  And that isn't to mention the fact there are other parallel realities in which the Dragon may be alive.

One other thing on the mantle debate.  The argument didn't just hinge on their being mantles within Demonreach.  I argued that there would be power that could be consumed/gobbled up on Halloween with the destruction of the entities by the banefire.  EG still didn't want the banefire to release any of the power by the entities within because it wasn't Halloween.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 08:43:21 PM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline raidem

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Re: Cold Days: Attack on Demonreach
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2018, 10:33:58 PM »
Quote
“Idiots,” he breathed. “Even if they could defeat the banefire . . .” “Wait,” I said. “Banefire?” “The fail-safe,” Vadderung said. “The fire the island showed you.” “Right. It’ll kill everything held there rather than let them escape, right?” “It is the only way,” Vadderung said. “If anyone managed to set free the things in the Well . . .” “Seems like it would be bad,” I said. “Not bad,” Vadderung said. “The end.”

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“So it’s going to happen sometime today or tonight.” Vadderung nodded. “And nearby.” “Why?”
More evidence to support that Halloween proper was the pivotal showdown period.

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“This is perfect,” she said. “In one night I’m going to unleash the Sleepers, slay a starborn, put an end to this troublesome mortal city, and begin a war between Summer and Winter. By the time the real assault on the Gates begins, Winter and Summer will be hunting one another in the night, and be so busy gouging out one another’s eyes that they’ll never see what is coming—all thanks to me. And you, of course. I couldn’t have done this at all without you.”
Part of their plan is to bypass the banefire but that requires coopting Harry it seems.  This is said near the end of the fight when Maeve gets a degree of control over Harry.

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“This is how it is supposed to be,” Maeve purred. “Knight and Lady, together. Fucking like animals. Taking what we please.” Her mouth turned up into a smile. “I thought you’d never let it in. Let it in deep, where I could touch.” Her lovely face took on a feigned, youthful innocence. “But I can touch it now, can’t I?” I growled. I’d forgotten how to do whatever that other thing was. All I could think about was the need. Claim her as a mate. Take whatever I pleased from her. Make her mine. Except . . . Wait. A fluttering surge of pure terror went through me, and it was energy enough to let me rip the Winter from my thoughts, to push it back. It didn’t want to go. It fought me every inch of the way, howling, filled with raw lust for flesh and for blood.  My ribs suddenly ached. My head spun a little. I suddenly needed that hand on the ground to keep my balance. Maeve saw it the second I regained control. Her eyelids lowered almost closed, and she breathed, “Ah. So close. But perhaps there is still time. Is that your staff, wizard, or are you just happy to see me?” I bared my teeth and said, “Maeve . . .”
That was Maeve attempting to co-opt Harry.

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“I know exactly what I have done,” Maeve snarled. “I have beaten you. This was never about the sleepers, or this accursed isle, or the lives of mortal insects. This was about beating you, you hidebound hag. About using your own games against you. Kill me now, and you risk destroying the balance of Winter and Summer forever, throwing all into chaos.”
Maeve then admits it wasn't about the sleepers, or the isle, or the mortals.  It was about besting Mab.

So we have a changing goal post of what was to be accomplished throughout the story.  I think there were several hurdles that Harry/allies had to jump over to 'win' or not 'lose.'
« Last Edit: January 23, 2018, 11:30:16 PM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html