Poll

Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?

Mab
1 (1.1%)
Nicodemus
18 (20%)
Ariana
2 (2.2%)
Red King
6 (6.7%)
Lord Raith
2 (2.2%)
Lara Raith
1 (1.1%)
Cowl
1 (1.1%)
Corpsetaker
2 (2.2%)
Maeve
1 (1.1%)
Mavra
5 (5.6%)
Bianca
0 (0%)
Polonius
1 (1.1%)
Peabody
4 (4.4%)
Marcone
0 (0%)
Kemmler
16 (17.8%)
Shagnasty
25 (27.8%)
Evil Bob
5 (5.6%)
Dracul
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Author Topic: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?  (Read 41698 times)

Offline jonas

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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #150 on: December 16, 2017, 02:38:15 PM »
Arianna Ortega was around a lot longer than Bianca, she turned her husband back in the conquistador days and he turned Bianca some time later. I see no reason to think Arianna is suddenly having a change in character to step up to replace Bianca, rather than Harry having got to a point of dealing with someone senior who was like that all along.

(My personal favourite notion for what's up with Bianca is that the Red Court deliberately picked their least stable lower-level type and rushed her promotion, before sending her to Chicago and again once she was there.  In order a) that she will sooner or later get into the fights they want got into with Harry, and b) that the higher a rank she is in, the bigger a bite they can legitimately take out of the Council as wergild when she dies.)
That depends, do you consider Ramps true immortals incapable of farther change or are they still technically 'mortal' to you? Because of they can't change, then a change that goes from lower level to higher looks a lot more suspect

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That would be pleasingly nasty, but I am pretty sure JB is not as nasty a person as I am.  If he was, Mirror Mirror would introduce Harry to a version of himself who'd done everything better, made different choices and engaged in different moral growth, saving thousands of lives, and Harry would forever after have to live with the knowledge of what a screw-up he was by comparison.
LMAO dude... think about MM from MM Harry's perspective, yes he is that vindictive! It's just not the Harry we've been following that will have that, though if MM Harry is actually original timeline Harry then... Pleasingly Nasty indeed lol.

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I remain entirely unconvinced Nemesis is a personification with any wants of its own, beyond "corrode Faerie constraints so that the Faerie in question can make choices that suit their own wants but are outside the bounds of their nature". (Maeve being a cruel type wants to get rid of competition, Aurora being an idealist wanting to end the conflict between Summer and Winter forever, Cat Sith being a proud ancient who would like nothing more than to decorate with the innards of the disrespectful wizard.)
Being that Nemesis specifically made deals with all but Cat Sith, i'd like to point out a correlation here to Nemesis as a entity. (especially as you mentioned before N basically giving free will where none should be) Morgana Le Fay, the original source in the books of the Atheme and first known Nfection vector, was in lore known as a Sea Sprite. In what i'd consider germaine connections to the mythos as given by Mab to Disney, we have Ursula the sea Hag(sister to Trident or whatever, Poseidon) known for collecting Souls and making bad deals, for having usurped the throne from her brother too. 
Now we can connect all this in verse to 1) the Fomor, and the connection that the overthrowing of kingdoms was of Atlantis itself. Possibly making her the 'Merlins Sister' archetype. (which might be more germaine for the source of Merlin then we think besides Atlantis. little known Dresden fact, he likes horses, creatures from the sea gods, clue for his heritage?) 2) IF she has souls or takes souls in deals, then she has Soul to spare to give to Fairie creatures whom are supposed to have none. Which would directly account for the newly proportional freedoms. She's giving them bits of soul/choice thereby altering their alloy. 3)this implies a tiered Nemesis whose in levels just as the fae courts are, Morgana being the 'Lady or Queen' to Nemesis propers 'Mother" status.(which might be less accurate as Mavra and others are part of it too I think, though Mavra might in truth be the original Morgana le Fay) Tier's could go Lachesis, the missing Fate between the two Nemesis, the 'ruler' and Morgana the Lady to come. This of course would start to have to do with the hidden meanings behind the labeling of the court's 6 queens. Those who were directly related to the Norse version of the fates and also being a metaphor for the fact their time has already gone for instance.
So personification is a thing for N, also... she's totally been trying to create than N universe mask too. My bottomline guide for a mirror is someone whose a bit crazy, a young woman, capable of great degrees of magic and who, like Lachesis the Chooser of Fate uses it to control and decide the fate of others
1)this why they tried to corrupt the Archive 2) what Titania and Mab would appear to be together, Kali. the destroyer and crazy magic lady. 3) it's why since her birth Mouse guards Maggie.(well, since her upheaval anyway, before it was there for Harry) 4) could be why Faith is going to come back as Femme Fatal
5) also part of what Molly would have been like without the events of PG saving her.
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CD does seem to me to lock down that the Courts are meant to work together towards an overall goal despite the opposition between them along the way, which was pleasing confirmation of what I have been arguing... since DB was when I came on the forums, but I have believed it since reading SK.

Ah go on, write it up nicely, then we can ask to have it put in the Reference Collection.
THAT'S the part I can't do lol. Organization.

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I've done that a few times, though I fear most of them are long over the event horizon of post deletion (and I do wish I had asked to have my Harry Dresden: the Case Against thread put in the reference collection);  give me a nice long afternoon with nothing else on my plate and I may do it again.

This and what you were saying earlier sounds like your master plan is  taking Faith/Hope/Love and their opposites as defining polarities in the shape of the DV, yes ?

I am inclined against, because that would make Christianity more defining in the DV than I think Jim intends to; the text so far feels like he is making really remarkable efforts to leave it open either way whether the Christian moral perspective and cosmology is more fundamental to the DV than any other (and I can sympathise with that at a meta-level, on not wanting to annoy either Christian or non-Christian readers.)  The Valkyries and the einherjar and the portrayal of Odin are entirely compatible with their cosmology and morality being as fundamental if not more so.
Those 3 primary powers actually originate In Buddhism and Taoism. Everyone gets that wrong because they know the Christian perspectives better themselves, ergo that's what they see come out. Those Nails are actually preChrist imo. They are the Fateful Nails of Nortia, the Etruscan Name for the Greek Nemesis. They are the weapons of the first 3 horsemen, the last death uses the other three. Under this, the current 'horsemen' are the 3 KotC and Uriel, death, who literally utilizes the other three to insure the order of the current decider of the order of fate TWG and his pro freedom. So Christianity is big in it right now for a reason... but it's not as big as you think.(most tend to get insulted when I imply these things that they know as Christian might not be exclusively so in a fictional work)

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OK, that's an interesting take on it.

I don't find that particularly compelling because we already have other dualities that serve that purpose, though.  Heaven and Hell, for one, Faerie and Fomor for another, Aesir and Jotun, and the existence of the Greek gods implies Titans.
This is were you might benefit from knowing a little Taoism. You know the yin-yang symbol, you probably don't know using the I Ching and Bagua symbol those two poles are farther broken down by them and 'alloyed' over everything in existence? been combining that with the Maori(iirc) mythos about the dividing darkness that seeks to become one again(much as I ad libbed before). Technically. MS an MW are the original division from Wuji, no poles, no definition, one form, one energy into yin and yang, which is broken down on so many different levels until it forms the 8 manifestations down into the 5 elements... which ARE actually the same metaphorical/metaphysical ones used in the Pentagram Harry wears. it even has the circle and star to represent the creation and destruction cycles between the 5.

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I don't think the Old Ones of the Outsiders are going to turn out to be Titans or Jotun any more than they are Fallen.
Not anymore no.
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Nicodemus and his like putting so much effort into corrupting souls means that at some level they have to see souls as worth obtaining.  Pretty much the only absolutely solid fact we have about the reality outside the Gates is that mordite is (a sort of) regular matter out there, and mordite is equally lethal to ordinary organic life as to soulless evil monsters like the Red Court.

To loop back to the actual thread title for the moment, there are evils that are playing on the other side of the chessboard trying to win things over from good, and there are other perpendicular struggles going on across the same chessboard between different forces, some of which occasionally make alliances with the more good/evil forces.  (Think of a game of Hope Verney four-player chess, or, if you want to move beyond dualities, to Orwell chess.)  And over and beyond that, we have entities that want to burn down the entire chessboard and dance in the ashes.  I don't believe that when Bob in GP refers to the Old Ones being driven beyond the Outer Gates he's referring to some sort of event in the mythical past of humanity,
Consider they weren't considered Outsiders then for a reason. I need to get back to this later cause whew, a lot to type up and respond to
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because any large amount of mordite being around on Earth is incompatible with humanity (and we know the DV had an evolutionary-scale history rather than a young-Earth (or young-Yggdrasil) creation because of everyone's favourite tyrannosaurus); I believe he is talking about the Big Bang, and that the Outsiders are not our shadows, but the predecessors of anything resembling rational ordered reality.

I'm the last person who needs to be assured of that, sometimes it seems I spend half my posts pointing such things out....

I remember the former, and coolness, I'd not connected the usernames.

Oh, there are loads of things I didn't figure out on my own that seemed obvious once other people pointed them out (like for example the location of the Stone Table in SK and Harry's meeting with Malcolm in DB both echoing Demonreach) so I do try to be open to people figuring out stuff I have missed.

I'd certainly like to; please do start a thread.

That seems to me barely one step up from saying that every time anyone claims things are getting bad, it must be Nemesis.  One of the things that was set up about Harry very early on is that he is familiar with genre fantasy and SF, that poem is enough of a go-to quote that I am not at all sold on it correlating with Nemesis.

That's the scale of syncretism I think Jim is largely aiming to avoid, btw; I see nothing to see he'd wish to offend contemporary believers in the Norse deities either.  The Fomor are Celtic and he has put them in opposition to a version of Faerie that are more in a post-Celtic tradition than anything else; DV Odin is quite distinct from Faerie, and I suspect the Jotun to be equally distinct from the Fomor as and when we do see them. (Which isn't to say they might not find goals in common.  Just like Mab and Odin do, or like that centaur in SK, who given the established reality of Classical mythos in the DV, now reads to me as a Classical expatriate living in Summer.)

How many times?  The athame and Maeve, and indeed, given post-CD knowledge that Summer and Winter are working together, Aurora.  And it's not as if she went seeking out the athame.

I think so too.

Not giving anything to distinguish that from Namshiel being her agent she wants to protect and conceal, IMO.

I'm not seeing Mab's reasoning for hiding suspicion of Namshiel from Harry if Namshiel is an enemy, considering how much she uses him against her enemies;and if Namshiel is an enemy, that also leaves the favour Mab owes Andruiel in SG as an unexplained loose end.  So without definitive evidence either way, I incline for the explanation that ties up more circumstantial evidence.

That's kind of neat; I still think that was resurgent Lash, though, and I remain to be convinced Bonnie is not Lash.

Works for me.

Pfft.  When new text smashes one of my favourite theories to splinters I abandon it without looking back.  (Well, except for still being sad that Morgan and Simon Pietrovich were not a couple.)

Yes, but the thing that is absolutely key to my methodology, that I seem to have the hardest time persuading other people of, is that the holes are as significant as the clues.  The patterns in what people don't say, don't think, don't know, are as important as what they do.

Look at the first two-thirds or so of SK, where Elaine leads Harry around by the nose (until he gets to the Mothers' cabin) in order to get him to steal the Unravelling.  Look at SmF where we can see Harry's mind shying away from thinking about his blasting rod, sometimes accompanied by headaches, in places where he would otherwise think of it, even though he has no idea himself that that is going on.

That could be it, I suppose.  I had not thought of that and I like it.

Tell me, do you reckon the Unseelie Incursion of 1994 when wherever-it-was disappeared for a few hours tied in here?  I suspect that is set-up for all of Chicago falling into the NN during the BAT or the immediate lead-up.

It works for me without needing Nemesis at all, because so very many of the influences on Harry's life are trying to encourage him to give in to accepting dark power for his own selfish ends rather than reasonably doing good.  SF has the moment outside the Sells house, FM has him nearly being corrupted by the hexenwulf belt, and in GP he gives in when he burns down Bianca's party and again when he kills Bianca.  This pattern's been there since Justin.

That feels almost the opposite of how I read it, that it is causing evil by providing free will that should not be there.

Fair enough.  I tend to read that voice as the first example we have of the insight Maggie gave Harry, which Lea does a Dumbo's feather job on him with in BR (note that the other time he figures something out that is specifically referred to as insight, it is working out Lea must have bargained with his mother, in SK).

No reason why they can't.  I think this again is slightly more moving parts than my notion here though.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 04:27:24 PM by jonas »
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Offline jonas

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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #151 on: December 16, 2017, 04:18:25 PM »
So I don't run out of space...
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I don't believe that when Bob in GP refers to the Old Ones being driven beyond the Outer Gates he's referring to some sort of event in the mythical past of humanity
Not sure how to explain this one. Depends on how Narrow your Outsiders are... One part of it that's coming into play for the 'used to exist here'. Fearbringer is described as 'deeper' than Mab for a reasoning. Outsiders that we're having trouble with are by and large the spirits of Gods(which might be oxymoronic, as Gods seem to be spiritual first anyway) who died but who don't want to go away. The ones who are part of reality, as the seasons or remember by human history seem to be more inside than out. But there are those killed intentionally whose masks and power were fed into the stone table that have not faded because they are not forgotten by humanity, but who have only a consciousness, no power of their own, and the memetics of them are tied up into the courts as well. The Walkers and Nemesis are on this tier of outsider.
Consider outsiders coming inside under new forms and finding true purpose. Look at Mab's throne room in CD, it's a giants castle. She is the heir to the ice giants. the beings themselves may have retreated beyond reality, but it's because someone else had gathered up the identity and power for herself(which matches the edda's i'm told and the ice queen basically stomping Laffey's nutz for power). Satan I think did this, and the current outsiders have outsider via lovecraftian appearance because that's the current belief for 'outside' in the human mind. Previously Hell was outside reality, and certainly Jotunheim was considered beyond the realms in Nordic myth.

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because any large amount of mordite being around on Earth is incompatible with humanity (and we know the DV had an evolutionary-scale history rather than a young-Earth (or young-Yggdrasil) creation because of everyone's favourite tyrannosaurus); I believe he is talking about the Big Bang, and that the Outsiders are not our shadows, but the predecessors of anything resembling rational ordered reality.
Some are, but what's NOT part of reality tends to be more complex and simpler than that perhaps. Specifically we have a woj the Eldest(including Lea) are actually a parts of the human psyche. The Shadow is a very large part connected to the subconscious which I think Nemesis represents perfectly. It's why MM Harry is Harry's Id, you could say Mab is actually Titania's Id, both brought in reality so that shadow doesn't exist/can't be occupied. MW too. and she's a prime suspect for being Outsider relatable. The balance is intentional. Also my point about the Balance between TWC's ideals and Lucifers' in the DF, they are intentionally opposite.

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I'm the last person who needs to be assured of that, sometimes it seems I spend half my posts pointing such things out....
Me too lol. If we have the same data, will we come to the same conclusions lol?

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I remember the former, and coolness, I'd not connected the usernames.

Oh, there are loads of things I didn't figure out on my own that seemed obvious once other people pointed them out (like for example the location of the Stone Table in SK and Harry's meeting with Malcolm in DB both echoing Demonreach) so I do try to be open to people figuring out stuff I have missed.
Oh yea, me too. Here's one since you brought it up, When Harry goes to the cottage and travels to the Outer Gates, they actually stand on the opening of the Lighthouse/DR to get there. Firmly planting the idea the sleepers are projecting themselves through dreaming to the outer gates to try and get back in. and with your example and the translation of Sidhe as people of the mounds it's possible all three are firmly tied together. Though how that translates is debatable, I've not had any epiphany to align it proper.

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I'd certainly like to; please do start a thread.

That seems to me barely one step up from saying that every time anyone claims things are getting bad, it must be Nemesis.  One of the things that was set up about Harry very early on is that he is familiar with genre fantasy and SF, that poem is enough of a go-to quote that I am not at all sold on it correlating with Nemesis.
It describes the inversion of time and the way the gyre will wobble do to natural decay.

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That's the scale of syncretism I think Jim is largely aiming to avoid, btw; I see nothing to see he'd wish to offend contemporary believers in the Norse deities either.  The Fomor are Celtic and he has put them in opposition to a version of Faerie that are more in a post-Celtic tradition than anything else; DV Odin is quite distinct from Faerie, and I suspect the Jotun to be equally distinct from the Fomor as and when we do see them. (Which isn't to say they might not find goals in common.  Just like Mab and Odin do, or like that centaur in SK, who given the established reality of Classical mythos in the DV, now reads to me as a Classical expatriate living in Summer.)
Not sure what to say to that, think you have it a bit different than I do here. Jotun are not Fomor, Jotun are what became winter imo. consider if the last apocalypse simply set up the next one for this, and we're mushing the two together.

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How many times?  The athame and Maeve, and indeed, given post-CD knowledge that Summer and Winter are working together, Aurora.  And it's not as if she went seeking out the athame.
I count Molly to, but that's just me lol. She was Nfected from breaking the laws and the fetch ate the Nfection. Notice after he eats her Scarecrow says he's served the queen of air and darkness since before human history? He is referring to the original. He's fearbringer using the minds eye as the mirror/beacon to find it's way in. That was the goal of the fetches, to fetch and eat her Nfection. which MW I think was allowed to release because... Mab had violated rules containing the Knight whose job killing Nfectee's is. One could say as the Falcon it's the Ladies job to find them.

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I think so too.

Not giving anything to distinguish that from Namshiel being her agent she wants to protect and conceal, IMO.

I'm not seeing Mab's reasoning for hiding suspicion of Namshiel from Harry if Namshiel is an enemy, considering how much she uses him against her enemies;and if Namshiel is an enemy, that also leaves the favour Mab owes Andruiel in SG as an unexplained loose end.  So without definitive evidence either way, I incline for the explanation that ties up more circumstantial evidence.
You lost me here.

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That's kind of neat; I still think that was resurgent Lash, though, and I remain to be convinced Bonnie is not Lash.

Works for me.

Pfft.  When new text smashes one of my favourite theories to splinters I abandon it without looking back.  (Well, except for still being sad that Morgan and Simon Pietrovich were not a couple.)
No Comment, no comment...

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Yes, but the thing that is absolutely key to my methodology, that I seem to have the hardest time persuading other people of, is that the holes are as significant as the clues.  The patterns in what people don't say, don't think, don't know, are as important as what they do.

Look at the first two-thirds or so of SK, where Elaine leads Harry around by the nose (until he gets to the Mothers' cabin) in order to get him to steal the Unravelling.  Look at SmF where we can see Harry's mind shying away from thinking about his blasting rod, sometimes accompanied by headaches, in places where he would otherwise think of it, even though he has no idea himself that that is going on.
My thing is information dumps on magical reasonings that actually describe something not mentioned. Like beacons in PG and wizards magic being able to summon Outsiders by being crazy enough in woj being why Warlocks are suspect. they create the mirror of their consciousness/beacon inside themselves through their own insanity, and it makes them more and more prone into being that thing as they use the magic. it's a slow possession/replacement.

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That could be it, I suppose.  I had not thought of that and I like it.

Tell me, do you reckon the Unseelie Incursion of 1994 when wherever-it-was disappeared for a few hours tied in here?  I suspect that is set-up for all of Chicago falling into the NN during the BAT or the immediate lead-up.
I think it's going to be a clue for PT actually, I think Mab is going to close a circle around Chicago for the talks, effectively making it part of the NN and under her power directly.

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It works for me without needing Nemesis at all, because so very many of the influences on Harry's life are trying to encourage him to give in to accepting dark power for his own selfish ends rather than reasonably doing good.  SF has the moment outside the Sells house, FM has him nearly being corrupted by the hexenwulf belt, and in GP he gives in when he burns down Bianca's party and again when he kills Bianca.  This pattern's been there since Justin.
Ah, in FM I finger the loups aura for making Harry almost give up on the way out of the Precinct, and the 'old' fireman as uriel providing a balance. The loup, being both mortal and spirit simultaneously gave his aura a human effect with a demigod oomph, it effected Harry directly.

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That feels almost the opposite of how I read it, that it is causing evil by providing free will that should not be there.
See my Ursula comment.

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Fair enough.  I tend to read that voice as the first example we have of the insight Maggie gave Harry, which Lea does a Dumbo's feather job on him with in BR (note that the other time he figures something out that is specifically referred to as insight, it is working out Lea must have bargained with his mother, in SK).

No reason why they can't.  I think this again is slightly more moving parts than my notion here though.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 04:22:37 PM by jonas »
Quote from: A. Lanning
I'm sorry, My responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
Quote from: C Chaplin
...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.

Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #152 on: December 16, 2017, 04:33:00 PM »
Jonas, I am going to save this and read it later. Too much info for my poor brain to handle. Is that okay?
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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #153 on: December 16, 2017, 05:13:04 PM »
And, the fomor secretly encouraged the RCV downfall.

I think I'd sum up my argument there as, secretly from the Red Court maybe, but secret from the readers not even slightly.
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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #154 on: December 16, 2017, 05:25:36 PM »
That depends, do you consider Ramps true immortals incapable of farther change or are they still technically 'mortal' to you? Because of they can't change, then a change that goes from lower level to higher looks a lot more suspect

Maybe I am not clear here, then.  I do not think there is a change going from Bianca to Arianna, because I think Arianna has been like that characterwise all along, it's just that Harry does not know anything about her until a few years after Bianca dies.

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LMAO dude... think about MM from MM Harry's perspective, yes he is that vindictive!

Nah, our Harry has screwed up quite spectacularly enough not to be an annoyingly too-good example to anyone.

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Being that Nemesis specifically made deals with all but Cat Sith,

Remind me where that is stated ?

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Morgana Le Fay, the original source in the books of the Atheme and first known Nfection vector, was in lore known as a Sea Sprite.

Which lore are you quoting there? I've seen her done as everything from human to half-devil, and most later stories conflate Morgana with Morgause.

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In what i'd consider germaine connections to the mythos as given by Mab to Disney, we have Ursula the sea Hag(sister to Trident or whatever, Poseidon) known for collecting Souls and making bad deals, for having usurped the throne from her brother too.

That feels a bit of a stretch to me.

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This of course would start to have to do with the hidden meanings behind the labeling of the court's 6 queens. Those who were directly related to the Norse version of the fates and also being a metaphor for the fact their time has already gone for instance.

Gosh. That's quite a set of notions and I think I need to digest them for a bit before I can say anything meaningful to them.

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Those 3 primary powers actually originate In Buddhism and Taoism. Everyone gets that wrong because they know the Christian perspectives better themselves, ergo that's what they see come out.

It would certainly be interesting to see more from those cosmologies on-screen in the DV.

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Those Nails are actually preChrist imo. They are the Fateful Nails of Nortia, the Etruscan Name for the Greek Nemesis. They are the weapons of the first 3 horsemen, the last death uses the other three.

Cool.  And that would fit in with my ongoing expectation that the fourth nail of he cross is due to show up eventually.  (Mutter grumble Triclavian Heresy mutter; nobody as Catholic as Michael should be sold on there only being three nails.)

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So Christianity is big in it right now for a reason... but it's not as big as you think.(most tend to get insulted when I imply these things that they know as Christian might not be exclusively so in a fictional work)

I am an ex-Catholic agnostic raised in Ireland, so it's pretty much impossible to offend me from that direction.

This is a lot to chew on; thank you.
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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #155 on: December 16, 2017, 05:38:56 PM »
Outsiders that we're having trouble with are by and large the spirits of Gods(which might be oxymoronic, as Gods seem to be spiritual first anyway) who died but who don't want to go away. The ones who are part of reality, as the seasons or remember by human history seem to be more inside than out. But there are those killed intentionally whose masks and power were fed into the stone table that have not faded because they are not forgotten by humanity, but who have only a consciousness, no power of their own, and the memetics of them are tied up into the courts as well. The Walkers and Nemesis are on this tier of outsider.

That take on them is definitely qualitatively different; I am not immediately finding it appealing because it binds them more to mortal reality than feels right to me, but this needs further thought.

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Satan I think did this, and the current outsiders have outsider via lovecraftian appearance because that's the current belief for 'outside' in the human mind. Previously Hell was outside reality, and certainly Jotunheim was considered beyond the realms in Nordic myth.

Same reaction applies here.  I think Outsiders are fundamentally more alien than that, and thinking of such anthropocentric concepts as fear or despair as defining their purpose and nature rather than merely being tools they use feels wrong; mind you, I am still less than entirely happy with how emotionally human Jim has had Faerie turn out to be, it feels both jarring with earlier books and to lessen their impact, to me. The DV is more impressive if it is bigger and more complex than anything human nature can be the measure of.

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Specifically we have a woj the Eldest(including Lea) are actually a parts of the human psyche.

I would love to be pointed at that.

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Me too lol. If we have the same data, will we come to the same conclusions lol?

Some day Jim will set down a final word on the whole setting, and at that point there will be no conclusions left to draw.

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Not sure what to say to that, think you have it a bit different than I do here. Jotun are not Fomor, Jotun are what became winter imo.

I do believe Gard mentions at some point that some Jotun have joined the Fomor.

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I count Molly to, but that's just me lol. She was Nfected from breaking the laws and the fetch ate the Nfection. Notice after he eats her Scarecrow says he's served the queen of air and darkness since before human history? He is referring to the original. He's fearbringer using the minds eye as the mirror/beacon to find it's way in.

I read him as Outsider-infected and in the process of attacking Mab there, with Molly as an incidental bonus.

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That was the goal of the fetches, to fetch and eat her Nfection. which MW I think was allowed to release because... Mab had violated rules containing the Knight whose job killing Nfectee's is.

That makes Winter sound a lot more internally conflicted than I have considered.  I think Mab contains Slade with the intent of putting pressure on Harry to take up the job.

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You lost me here.

If Namshiel is working for Mab, it explains why Mab would hide thinking about it from Harry, and it could explain the favour Mab owes Anduriel, which gets called in at the start of SG.

If Namshiel is an enemy, neither of these seem to be the case to me.

Therefore I find the former notion more appealingly Occamian.


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I think it's going to be a clue for PT actually, I think Mab is going to close a circle around Chicago for the talks, effectively making it part of the NN and under her power directly.

That would certainly be neat.

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Ah, in FM I finger the loups aura for making Harry almost give up on the way out of the Precinct, and the 'old' fireman as uriel providing a balance.

That does not ring true to me because sfaict Uriel only gets to act like that to counter the Fallen.
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Offline jonas

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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #156 on: December 16, 2017, 05:57:21 PM »
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That does not ring true to me because sfaict Uriel only gets to act like that to counter the Fallen.
He gets to act to counter violations of free will technically, from Angelic sources. I'd point out though, Michael with the Sword has at least three times been considered 'on duty' vs things not the Fallen. At least once vs Blamps pre series, a Dragon, and vs the Outsiders offscreen in PG. Consider how thing balance each other, does 30 coins to 3 swords seem right? Or does 3 walkers to three KotC?(technically 4, but i'd have to go about convincing you of two or three other things to prove that lol) The Denarians are the inverse balance to the KotC just as much as the Fairie courts. With Nemesis standing on the sidelines waiting for an imbalance for one and the walkers for the other. It's ALL about trying to keep the balance inside of reality to keep it from reality vs unreality.

Since fear becomes Rage I consider the Loup the prison created for Fearbringer's spiritual attachment. So he was directly countering what I consider a known foe.
get to the rest soon.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 06:01:26 PM by jonas »
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Offline jonas

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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #157 on: December 19, 2017, 01:11:36 AM »
That take on them is definitely qualitatively different; I am not immediately finding it appealing because it binds them more to mortal reality than feels right to me, but this needs further thought.
Ah, that's why I have different tiers to them, like the Lovecraftian version too(especially when you start in on the extended lore)

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Same reaction applies here.  I think Outsiders are fundamentally more alien than that, and thinking of such anthropocentric concepts as fear or despair as defining their purpose and nature rather than merely being tools they use feels wrong;
Mmm, I think that's the whole point of DR and seeing different mindsets/visages of reality. DR made some of those things part of reality, such as fear or death(a negative thing if ever there was one) without giving the patron spirit of those things a way to act through more then Influence(which by and large makes all those things in the well part of what we are considering 'Nemesis' as a dark and possessive force) More perhaps these are just the aspects that aren't alien to them. Those few things in reality we still remember of nameless Gods of many horrid aspects waiting to find more room inside reality.
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mind you, I am still less than entirely happy with how emotionally human Jim has had Faerie turn out to be, it feels both jarring with earlier books and to lessen their impact, to me. The DV is more impressive if it is bigger and more complex than anything human nature can be the measure of.
I don't think that changing from the beginning of the series to now is a coincidence, but can you detail more of what you mean> your expectations?
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I would love to be pointed at that.
If I find it... However, I wonder I can't convince you in a round about way. Lea is a Muse, specifically, like the greek muses, of which the 9 were said to represent aspects of the human psyche(i'd wonder how many Eldest mantles Faerie has., Mmm). This is directly germain when you consider, the Library of Alexandria was specifically known for housing the larges collection on the 9 muses, and OG Merlin is direclt referenced for being the one to save what could be from said Library. I find this... NOT a coincidence you know lol?

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Some day Jim will set down a final word on the whole setting, and at that point there will be no conclusions left to draw.
That's what i'm worried about though, even if he completes the series a lot of stuff just might not come up directly that he's still layered into the story never the less.

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I do believe Gard mentions at some point that some Jotun have joined the Fomor.
That's probable. I think they made reference to something of that, them being defeated gods.
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I read him as Outsider-infected and in the process of attacking Mab there, with Molly as an incidental bonus.
Na, I see the change when Harry is approaching the tower, the door slamming shut that had been opened, to mean SC was at that time overtaken. Which iirc is exactly after molly screamed/was fed upon. The timeline works with the theory.

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That makes Winter sound a lot more internally conflicted than I have considered.  I think Mab contains Slade with the intent of putting pressure on Harry to take up the job.
Harry didn't even know he was alive for years though. It's less about internal conflict then the mothers doing what's needed to maintain the balance, even if tha's not always a good thing overall. Like with the unmaking it was necessary. Going back to what you said about Faerie emotions... Titania used logic to overcome desire to kill Dresden and Mab used 'romantic' notions to choose who killed Maeve... I think they're not holding together as well as they used to anymore. they're blending in traits.

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If Namshiel is working for Mab, it explains why Mab would hide thinking about it from Harry, and it could explain the favour Mab owes Anduriel, which gets called in at the start of SG.

If Namshiel is an enemy, neither of these seem to be the case to me.

Therefore I find the former notion more appealingly Occamian.
I don't agree. Lol, I of course have no idea were you got those idea's to say your wrong.  But I can't see the edge on your razor there.


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That would certainly be neat.

That does not ring true to me because sfaict Uriel only gets to act like that to counter the Fallen.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 03:06:43 AM by jonas »
Quote from: A. Lanning
I'm sorry, My responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
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...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #158 on: December 19, 2017, 05:04:21 AM »
Assuming for a moment that Nemesis is some sort of behind-everything boogeyman rather than a Fae-specific infection (which I do not actually believe, because there is no need for it, it does not explain anything not already solidly explained), it's still a specific individual disrupting influence.  So that's an argument for attacking Nemesis, not for attacking the Red Court.  If anything, it's an argument for allying with the Red Court against Nemesis; they are visibly not benefiting from its actions either.

Yeah, but that was not an option.  What would make sense in a grand, abstract big-view analysis doesn't matter, what mattered was the perceived situation at the time.  Harry had no idea Nemesis existed as of Grave Peril, so he couldn't be expected to take it into account in his decisions.  Nor would doing so have saved Susan.

Whether and how much the Council as a whole knows about Nemesis is a very, very good question.

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The ability of wizards to mess with technology does go a fair ways to counter that, and Harry has been able to contain that to some extent when he has tried, so I have a reasonable amount of faith that more skilled and experienced wizards would be able to do better.

No, messing with technology is the problem.  If they could do it selectively, if they only messed up technology when they wanted to, yeah, it would be all good and the balance of power would be retained.  But they cannot do that.

In 1850, crossing the Atlantic was a huge big deal by conventional means.  Either the RC or the WCouncil could use the Nevernever, but neither had any particular advantage there, or if one side did, it was probably the Council.

In 1950, crossing the Atlantic is no big deal...for the Red Court.  A Red can just buy a ticket on a trans-Atlantic flight and be there in less than a day, without dealing with any of the 'overhead' of using the Nevernever.  A Wizard can buy that ticket too...but it's not safe.  At all.

In 1870, sending a fast message meant a telegraph message.  Either the Council or the Court can do that equally well, since the Wizard doesn't have to interact with the tech.  In 1970, sending a fast message means using the phone.  The Court can do that as easily as you or me, but it's a huge headache for the Council.  (We've seen that in-text, Harry mentions that the Council uses telephones like everyone else, but with a lot more service calls.)

Land-lines are bad enough, but by 2000 it's moving to wireless communication depending on microelectronics, which is way worse for the Council.  In fact, it's totally impractical for the Council, but Ortega or the Red King can use an iPhone as well as anybody else.

Cars are problematic for Wizards.  Computers are impractical, except via hired staff.  It all adds up to an ever-greater vulnerability on the Council's part, one they were sort of aware of before the war, but not taking nearly seriously enough.

Which is proven by the events of Summer Knight.  A key point of that whole business is that the Council is getting their collective asses handed to them by the Red Court, and their chances of fighting back depend very heavily on getting Mab to let them use the Ways of Winter to counteract the Court's transport and communications advantages.  If Harry had failed in that, it probably would have meant the Court won the war.

Now, granted, Mab balances her scales.  She knew they were twisting the Accords, and sooner or later she'd probably have handed the Red King his ass in some obscure, twisted revenge.  But that wouldn't have done the White Council, or the human race, any good.  The Council would still be wiped out and the Court (and other nasties too) still have been free to indulge themselves for a while.

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #159 on: December 19, 2017, 05:17:46 AM »

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This made the White Council vulnerable, but the Senior Council and the rest of the older Wizards were not fully aware of how much that changed everything.

You buy into Harry's prejudices on this front, then ?

No, I observe the events of Grave Peril and Summer Knight, among other things, to observe that Harry's opinion on this subject is valid.  I don't agree with Harry's attitude about the elders on the Council across the board, but he's right that they were dangerously complacent and out of touch.

It may not have been entirely their fault, Peabody was in play, and I wouldn't be surprised if others were at work as well.  But the result is much the same.

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We see what happens when the Red Court trespass on Winter in DB (they must have, to attack the Council in the Ways, because the Council only ave access to Ways in Winter); they get a through hammering in PG as a direct result of Faerie actions.

Yeah, but they were already winning even without crossing into Winter.  That turned out to be an unforced error, granted.

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We also see what happens in Changes when they make a false peace offer; they get exterminated.


Yes, by then the tide of war had turned.  Even without Harry's turning the Court's trap against them, the odds of a Council victory were good by the time of Changes.  But to get to that point they had had to survive several near-death experiences, and they achieved it as much by luck as good management.

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We see, in SG, Mab acting to punish Nicodemus for his violation of truce with the Archive in SmF.

Which would have helped Ivy exactly how, if Harry and Co. had not been in time to save her?

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The evidence does not come down in favour of Accords violations being trivial things to get away with.  Therfore the Red Court absolutely need that casus belli.

Oh, no doubt!  That's why they went to the trouble in the first place!

But at the same time, it's simply not that hard to create situations where the pretext will be made available.  Harry was a handy way, for various reasons, but by no means the only way.

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How does that save Susan?


It doesn't.  Why is Susan's life worth more than the tens of thousands the war has taken, and why should anyone other than Harry find his choice there acceptable?

Because the huge majority of human beings, including most Wizards, would do the same thing in the same situation (at least in essence, the details might vary).  Harry's reaction was the normal human reaction.  You always bet on people prioritizing their own loved ones over strangers.  Exceptions exist, but they're just that.



Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #160 on: December 19, 2017, 05:23:56 AM »

Since when does the person who starts the attacks make the decision about war or peace ?  It's the choice of how to respond that determines whether that is a war.

Since forever.  Once the attack is made, the war has begun.  The Red Court attacked the White Council via pretext, the arrangement of the pretext was in itself an attack on the Council.  The Council could either defend themselves, or not, but war they had.  Failure to respond might have caused the Court to delay things a very little while, until they could rig another pretext, but that's all.

In the meantime, the entire supernatural world would have seen a single clear lesson in the failure to respond:  The Council feared the Court.  So the number of allies for the Reds would have multiplied.


Offline Arjan

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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #161 on: December 19, 2017, 07:00:58 AM »
Same reaction applies here.  I think Outsiders are fundamentally more alien than that, and thinking of such anthropocentric concepts as fear or despair as defining their purpose and nature rather than merely being tools they use feels wrong; mind you, I am still less than entirely happy with how emotionally human Jim has had Faerie turn out to be, it feels both jarring with earlier books and to lessen their impact, to me. The DV is more impressive if it is bigger and more complex than anything human nature can be the measure of.
I rememder you even denied the fairy had any emotions at all even after I quoted Lea in changes who explicitly stated it was Shame what drove her to Mab for help.

Simple emotions like fear and hunger have to be very old in evolution because they are the logical drivers for any action. The Sidhe are all human based, they have to comply to human story telling in some way and magic is connected to emotions. It stands to reason the they are highly emotional creatures. They even have extra emotions we donít feel that much like a sense of balance.

The outsiders must have some sort of motivation to act as they do, they act like they are directed and plan things and we can communicate with them.
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Offline huangjimmy108

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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #162 on: December 19, 2017, 07:28:15 AM »
Like, you know, being willing to let the world burn to save his daughter?  (We have WoJ that Harry absolutely meant that at the time.)

Maybe it's a product of growing up in an environment with a very real threat of violence from ideological fanatics, but when I read that sequence, my sympathies were absolutely with the world.  It constantly bemuses me how many readers sympathise with Harry in that scene even when he is clearly saying "I consider you personally and all your loved ones acceptable collateral damage so long as I get what I care about" to everyone else in the world.  The people I have heard that from before have not been ones I could consider good or sympathetic.

Harry's "Let the world burn" attitude is, in fact, considered as "evil" by the standards of the dresdenverse. Uriel made that clear in GS, and Harry is still suffering the consequences of that particular bad karma even now.

Evil though it may be, but it is still deserving of sympathies. The greatest difference between Harry's kind of "let the world burn" and Nicodemous's "sacrifices to save the world" is explain in book 10. When Harry burns the world, he burns himself along with it, marshmellow notwithstanding. when Nicodemous did it, he look from afar and enjoys the benefits of those sacrifices.

Again, it does not make Harry's attitude "good". It is still "evil", but sympathy is still deserve.

If we compare things to "threat of violence from ideological fanatics" you mentioned: Harry is that guy who got brainwashed or blackmailed or whatever and carry the suicide bomb and die for his beliefs, wrong though it may be, While Nicodemous is the freaking mastermind.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #163 on: December 19, 2017, 08:41:29 AM »
Harry's "Let the world burn" attitude is, in fact, considered as "evil" by the standards of the dresdenverse. Uriel made that clear in GS, and Harry is still suffering the consequences of that particular bad karma even now.

Evil though it may be, but it is still deserving of sympathies. The greatest difference between Harry's kind of "let the world burn" and Nicodemous's "sacrifices to save the world" is explain in book 10. When Harry burns the world, he burns himself along with it, marshmellow notwithstanding. when Nicodemous did it, he look from afar and enjoys the benefits of those sacrifices.

Again, it does not make Harry's attitude "good". It is still "evil", but sympathy is still deserve.

If we compare things to "threat of violence from ideological fanatics" you mentioned: Harry is that guy who got brainwashed or blackmailed or whatever and carry the suicide bomb and die for his beliefs, wrong though it may be, While Nicodemous is the freaking mastermind.
Anduriel Actually. Nicodemus is just his victim. That is why Michael still tried to save him.
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Offline huangjimmy108

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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #164 on: December 19, 2017, 12:29:24 PM »
Anduriel Actually. Nicodemus is just his victim. That is why Michael still tried to save him.

I have to borrow Harry's words for this from book 5. Nicodemous is no victim, he is a freaking collaborator.

In this enterprise of evil the fallen conducted, saying that Nick has a 50% share may not be accurate, but it won't be too much of an exaggeration either.

Michael himself does not deny the fact that the likes of Nicodemous and Cassius are collaborators. He is just duty bound to saved them regardless.
But they were doughnuts of darkness. Evil, damned doughnuts, tainted by the spawn of darkness . . .
    . . . which could obviously be redeemed only by passing through the fiery, cleansing inferno of a wizardly digestive tract.