Poll

Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?

Mab
1 (1.1%)
Nicodemus
18 (20%)
Ariana
2 (2.2%)
Red King
6 (6.7%)
Lord Raith
2 (2.2%)
Lara Raith
1 (1.1%)
Cowl
1 (1.1%)
Corpsetaker
2 (2.2%)
Maeve
1 (1.1%)
Mavra
5 (5.6%)
Bianca
0 (0%)
Polonius
1 (1.1%)
Peabody
4 (4.4%)
Marcone
0 (0%)
Kemmler
16 (17.8%)
Shagnasty
25 (27.8%)
Evil Bob
5 (5.6%)
Dracul
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Author Topic: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?  (Read 31461 times)

Offline jonas

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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #135 on: December 15, 2017, 09:03:22 AM »
How is that not adequately explained by a) her wanting revenge on Harry and b) Mavra manipulating her, including specifically teaching her how to use dark magic?
because after she died someone who's quite similar suddenly becomes the same uppity Red Noble Lady? Also because i'm guestimating in MM Susan will instead be that Ramp seeking ascension... Meaning someway that was always going to play out/part of an influencial plan.

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I'm not ignoring that; I am not claiming that Nemesis is not a tool of the Outsiders and used by them.

I am saying that suddenly blaming Nemesis for most of everything that has gone wrong in the whole series is not supported.
I quite agree, she's not always the one at play, but she's the one all the strings connect back too. It's her role to break reality just as much as it is Mab's to preserve it, THAT is a balance not found in the two queens imo. Neither want's to end reality, Mab wants it for herself(ergo she stops outsiders) and Titania want's to balance that directly. but neither want it gone(same could unfortunately be said of the Mothers, meaning they don't collect the balance on the next level up.

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I'm not familiar with what you are referring to here; if this a bit of speculation/analysis from the past couple of years I may well have missed it.
Yes... unfortunately I don't have a collective body of work. I'm not the kind of person who could organize that alone.(like Arnold/Terminator, i'm a firm believer there are no 'self made men')

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Every major plot point prior to CD has a solid plausible explanation in the text except for Aurora going loopy.

Many of them have multiple solid plausible explanations in the text.
Well hot damn, you got a list? Cause it would be damn useful lol. Actually though, I can point out a whole host of other things not directly shown related to theories(which have way too much adding up to be nothing), I actually did a 'conclusion' for the purpose/plots behind each of the books. FM, for instance, was about breaking the curse to free Fearbringer from it's current Host/prison. GP tried to remake a spirit of terror directly in Kravos, ect. ect. The goal as far as N and the walkers go, is to find purchase inside reality, find identity, so they can then judge and destroy it in so much as their version is are Hell on earth scenario. This isn't the only Outsiders with beef, that's just theirs. On a different but related tier the Lord of Slowest Terror/Hunter of Shadows aka Chronos wants true Oblivion. for everything to return to it's original oneness, to collect all the 'shadows'. Aka those made by those who stand inside the light, insiders defining outsiders through penumbra effect. WE cast the shadows that give the outsiders definition, without us they have none. and that's the Original Darkness's goal, to be one again(see the Chronos similarity in the desire?)

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I am not saying that.

I am saying anything not Nemesis is not proven to be related to Nemesis.  There is a big difference.
Perhaps... which I am trying to find here.
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Again, where is this coming from?  It makes sense, but I am not recalling textev for it unless I have missed a lot in a recent short story.
LOL, no. But imo a lot of people have missed things already in the books out now. Idk if you remember me as Wizard Nelson or Sibelis, but this is why I always liked you. Upon hearing a new and different theory instead of reflexively saying i'm wrong you ask me if I have sources you don't lol. If perchance you'd ever like to talk about my theory, which is grand and unifying as any other I've read here, i'd love for a chance to talk with someone who might actually understand it.

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Yep, because that poem is one of the most frequently quoted in any end of the world novel anywhere; George RR Martin uses it a lot in The Armageddon rag for example.
When they do they usually have specific purposes in mind behind it, in the DF it's Nemesis. I'd have to track down(or just use that excellent reference section while I can, duh) the precise scenes but everytime Murphy has mentioned it it's been directly related to a 'wonky' book where Nemesis is the likeliest puppeteer. Course... in some ways i'm applying Nemesis as simply a destabilizing force, or should I say THE destabilizing force.(which the fomor court of water is precisely the Norse end state of the Fire and Ice balance btw, just part of the process of Force Majore Decay) I'd have to go about explaining every aspect its been used in, where, and why though. Maeve apparently being Nfected and her directly quoting it is a prime example though.

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We have no evidence linking Namshiel to Nemesis at Arctis Tor.
Lol, I don't disagree with that really, I was just pointing it out as something not taken into account.

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Here is a plausible alternative explanation: 

Arctis Tor is normally guarded by tons of trolls and goblins.  Harry and Thomas can't plausibly break through that big a force by themselves.

Mab can't ask Harry to break in and rescue Molly directly without using up a favour, which she doesn't want to do.

Mab can't just order the trolls away because that will be suspicious as heck.

Therefore, Mab hires a Denarian to attack the trolls and goblins and open the way for Harry. (we have a WoJ that Mab would sacrifice her entire court in an instant if there was gain to be had).

Namshiel, or possibly Nicodemus, was there working for Mab.  This is why Mab owed Nicodemus a favour in SG.

Note also; Harry's first conversation with Mab in SmF involves her hiding something from his mind (the blasting wand), and distracting him from noticing with a brutal headache.  When he mentions Namshiel at the end of SmF, she slaps him down again, and he never mentions Namshiel again.   Not even when hanging out with Denarians.

Does this make sense to you?
Yes, but I will now use it as my own evidence lol. Mab has shown the winter court to time and again be interested in Nfected sources. If she hid the coin's where about's in his mind then she took it is the likelist answer, giving rise to a very good reasoning behind Namshiel being the culprit or otherwise compromised. Recently(griff iirc) someone had a theory it's because his subconscious took control of his empty hand after the soulfire to secure the coin for Mab. It had a glove always, and was shown moving without his intention to snatch a coin at another point(need to make sur the wasn't HIS coin too, cause that would set a precedent on targeting him spc) I find it likely when she took his Rod she made another deal with his subconscious mind coin, she does so when she attacks him again when he brings it up perhaps..

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Not at all, because saying "everyone could be wrong" is not saying we haven't a leg to stand on.  We can assess who might be wrong or lying based on what we know about them.  Fallen lie all the time.  Faerie tell the literal truth in a misleading way.  Michael Carpenter's value of being a good man includes respect for the truth, but he has also said if anything good happens and he does not know where it comes from he credits the White God, which means that if he got a random gift from Odin and did what he said he does he would be wrong about its origin.
I have a feeling no matter who said it you'd lawyer up a perspective against their authenticity though lol.

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I am not dismissing him.  I would point out the inherent difficulties of confirming any evidence about Nemesis when part of your working model is "never mention it to anyone", though.
Except for someone whose job it is to do so, would probably have his methods of doing so, case in point meeting Harry face to face when he challenged the council to be sure he didn't see anything in him.

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Oh, I entirely count that.  It's part of why I believe the real players are still to come, and Nemesis is as much of a red herring for One-Explanation-For-Everything as the "Black Council" was.
I agree, and disagree of course lol. I think I know why Nemesis is the main threat and though it will not always be so by that name, the actual effect it works through will always be an inherent problem in reality. Jim's world is steeped in it's mechanics. I try to see them properly, though holes exist where only clue's are given.

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I see several purposes there, depending on how well informed the enemies are.  Challenge Harry; challenge Marcone; expose Harry to an option that nearly turns him to the dark side (just outside the Sells' house, before he hears the mysterious female voice, he is very near using the drug against the wardens); set Harry up to be executed; set Harry up to have the Doom lifted so that he'll be harder for the Council to disavow come GP and subsequent books when he is being set up as cause of the war.
Ah... not bad, but I think it was mostly to get the 3 eye drug out there to start effecting mortal belief and weaken the veil more. As Storm Front is literally the storm front of events leading up to the storm in Dead Beat. It's reference to the stirring up of the ghosts and dark magic, the beginning of trying to pierce the veil as Mort mentions in both GP and DB iirc.

Funny you mention the scene outside of Sells house though, i'm fairly sure that's the first time Nemesis made it's presence known in the books. I have this rather simply put theory that N get's purchase whenever magic is used to violate freewill, which most all the Fae infected were either directly or indirectly around strong active sources of mortal magic or wizards themselves. In this case the reaction from N saved Harry because it was his free will being violated by the aura of dark magic. I have no real proof of this, it just aligns well with my theorem.

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Funny that people regard that connection as significant when Odin tells Harry directly in Changes that the spell the Reds were using at CI was the one the Shadowman tested out; I take the direct evidence over the similarity there.  Particularly as we know from "love Hurts" that the Reds are specifically doing research into understanding the White Lust power.
that's right, they are doing current research, Shadowman's dusty books told him his info I believe, so his sources are better informed. Why can't the whites be doing work into how the Reds spells work? Raith again, is actually very interested in magic apparently.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 09:13:40 AM by jonas »
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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #136 on: December 15, 2017, 07:39:02 PM »
Switching between real and perceived strength. The perceived strength of the council certainly grew after Chichen Itza but the real strength did not and now they are at war with the Fomor.

We have Luccio's word early in Changes that the Council's real strength then is twice what it was before the attack in DB.  With that being her area of expertise and her having no motivation to lie there, I am inclined to believe her.

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And the red courts actions and aims were not based on the white councils perceived strength after they were destroyed but on how strong the white council seemed to be around Summer Knight and that was weak.

At that point they were willing to make a peace offer in exchange for Harry.

We see in Changes what happens to anyone who makes a formal peace offer under the Accords and does not deliver.

Therefore, either they seriously meant the peace offer, or they would have betrayed it and all been dead in a few days.

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In this case it did not prove the white councils strength, it proved that other powers wanted the red court gone.

You are ignoring WoJ, and I believe also Eb explicitly saying in the text, that a wizard's strength is measured by the allies they bring.

The White Council bringing a ton of different powers to the battle with them isn't "We are weak, we need help".  It's "look how strong we are because we made alliances and brought all these people to the table."

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They are now at war with the white council and that started exactly at the same moment the big red court attack was supposed to happen. That is coordinated and that would have helped the red court enormously if it was still there to profit from it. They did not back out when they heard about the downfall of the red court because by then it was probably too late.

You don't think the chaos caused by the loss of the Red Court is beneficial to anyone seeking to take advantage of it?

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Attacking the white council exactly at the moment of the great red court attack is a strange way of achieving that. Doing nothing would have been better.

Which part of "let's you two guys fight to the death, whoever survives will be weaker and then I can jump in and finish them off, and that gets rid of two major rivals rather than one" is striking you as poor strategy here?

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That is not taking into consideration the nature of that party. Big sacrifices on high altars are feasts were everyone eats. You don't invite food to these parties as guests unless you want to eat them. This was a private vampire thing

Requiring the Red Court to be morons with no ability to put strategic good sense, like actually putting all the defences they can call on around as major a strike as they are planning at CI, ahead of satisfying their bloodlust again doesn't parse with them having spent centuries not starting a war.

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There is no reason to believe the red council was peaceful all that time, there is more in the world than the white council to fight with.

There is reason to believe they were not rampantly violating the Accords because they still exist.  And we are certain they were not bad neighbours to the White Council because Eb says in PG that the Council have not been at war like this in a thousand years.

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They expanded from their original base in central america to a far bigger empire just before their fall. That does not happen without war.

You have some evidence for this being just before their fall rather than a slow process occupying all the centuries since first contact ?

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Sure but Mab is not there to protect puppies.

She is there to protect signatories.

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The accords leave a lot of room for war and killing. They are not there to protect the weak but to give tools to end endless cycles of pointless violence. But both parties need to agree to stop the war.

Note that Nicodemus' offence in SmF is specifically called out as attacking the Archive without cause or warning.  That is evidence for the Accords regulating when and how signatories may go to war.  Note also that Marcone sees the Accords as regulating who is likely to attack him, and in "Even Hand", he is entirely sure, having just killed a fairly senior Fomorian, that as a signatory he can unilaterally pay wergild and that legally resolves the matter; the Fomor's agreement is not required.

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And I am trusting Shiro and Thomas who both know better.

Thomas, who is part of a conspiracy that Martin admits on the page, in Changes, was there to assassinate Ortega and keep the war going because otherwise it would have stopped?

We know what Thomas is doing there, and why.  We know what he wants from Harry.  Why there is any reason at all to trust what he says with that motive established, I do not know. 

Shiro, on the other hand, is part of an organisation who explicitly choose to put faith ahead of evidence, as we see in their insistence on continually providing opportunities for Denarian hosts to repent.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #137 on: December 15, 2017, 08:37:13 PM »
We have Luccio's word early in Changes that the Council's real strength then is twice what it was before the attack in DB.  With that being her area of expertise and her having no motivation to lie there, I am inclined to believe her.
Numbers, not strength. Wizards get strength when they get older so an old wizard is not easily replaced by a few younger ones.
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At that point they were willing to make a peace offer in exchange for Harry.
And what would that have meant in practice? It means the red court can keep demanding things. The Gatekeeper was quite clear about that. The white council had been hit unproportionally heavyly by Archangel.
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We see in Changes what happens to anyone who makes a formal peace offer under the Accords and does not deliver.
That is your interpretation. I see what happens if you work too closely with outsiders to change the status quo. The elders take action. Odin and Uriel have no direct interest enforcing Mab's accords anyway.
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Therefore, either they seriously meant the peace offer, or they would have betrayed it and all been dead in a few days.
I don't think so. They would simply add more demands until the council had to refuse.

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You are ignoring WoJ, and I believe also Eb explicitly saying in the text, that a wizard's strength is measured by the allies they bring.
The red court has allies to and you dismiss them all the time. The Fomor and the warlocks with outsiders. It is about allies you can reliably count on. The Tengu are, Winter is not.
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The White Council bringing a ton of different powers to the battle with them isn't "We are weak, we need help".  It's "look how strong we are because we made alliances and brought all these people to the table."

You don't think the chaos caused by the loss of the Red Court is beneficial to anyone seeking to take advantage of it?
The attack was too well coordinated, they did not even wait to see how it would end. That is most likely because the attack was agreed with the red court before. They attacked the white council, the victor of Chichen Itza.

If they were just profiting from the chaos they would have acted later both because they wouldn't be that sure about when and who to attack and because it would be safer to attack the loser. They would be all over latin america to profit from the fall of the red court and not fighting a winner. Unless they of course thought the red court, their allies, had a safe plan for winning the war end they would loose the opportunity to profit from the white councils defeat if they did not join.
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Which part of "let's you two guys fight to the death, whoever survives will be weaker and then I can jump in and finish them off, and that gets rid of two major rivals rather than one" is striking you as poor strategy here?
They jumped too soon for that. They jumped the red courts enemies, those who won the war.
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Requiring the Red Court to be morons with no ability to put strategic good sense, like actually putting all the defences they can call on around as major a strike as they are planning at CI, ahead of satisfying their bloodlust again doesn't parse with them having spent centuries not starting a war.
It makes good political sense, for internal politics that is. Besides this is a magical world based on ancient traditions and believes. Some things have to be done a certain way. It is their nature.

What are sacrificial parties for? You sacrifice, eat the meat and bond with each other.

And of course they did not think they needed more. The red king lied about being crazy but not about his arrogance. That is quite a common feature in this world.
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There is reason to believe they were not rampantly violating the Accords because they still exist.  And we are certain they were not bad neighbours to the White Council because Eb says in PG that the Council have not been at war like this in a thousand years.
Smaller scale but effective enough because they expanded. The accords are not there to prevent war, they just regulate it. There is more than enough room for violence within the accords.

And sure the scale is unique because the council was stronger than expected and the apocalypse is coming, everything will be on a bigger scale.

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You have some evidence for this being just before their fall rather than a slow process occupying all the centuries since first contact ?
Probably a slow process but that changes nothing. Expansion in an occupied world is not possible without violence.

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She is there to protect signatories.
She is not there to protect anyone except reality in general. She protects her accords but see what happened in white night for example. The aggrieved party must take action otherwise there is no case and Mab offers only a framework for resolving conflicts.

It is the duty of the aggrieved party to take action, otherwise no case at all. If you have no family you have no protection. This is all old school, Mab is from the dark ages, to look for something that is even better than the UN is anachronistic.

If you kill the whole red court there is no one to take action, that works even if the red court had not broken the accords.

It is much like Njal's saga. A very informative book about a norse feud in the tenth century.


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Note that Nicodemus' offence in SmF is specifically called out as attacking the Archive without cause or warning.  That is evidence for the Accords regulating when and how signatories may go to war.  Note also that Marcone sees the Accords as regulating who is likely to attack him, and in "Even Hand", he is entirely sure, having just killed a fairly senior Fomorian, that as a signatory he can unilaterally pay wergild and that legally resolves the matter; the Fomor's agreement is not required.
He did not expect them to refuse the weregeld. It is never said he could or could not. But it has been historically always an option so unless it is clearly stated it can not be refused I must conclude it can be refused.

And in summer knight the red court did not ask for a weregeld for Bianca, it would probably have been paid by the white council, it asked for Harry, for blood.

Besides the weregeld for simon and his crew would be much higher than that for Bianca.

Weregeld is an option. A duel is also a possibility. Declaring war works as well. And until the reds completely went bonkers and attacked fairy the fairy courts did not take action until much later.

Three days? That would never have happened.
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Thomas, who is part of a conspiracy that Martin admits on the page, in Changes, was there to assassinate Ortega and keep the war going because otherwise it would have stopped?
Who also knows the red court and their nature better than we do. Actually ask the merlin in Changes, he would have told us the shark's nature would not change. That was after Peabodies influence was stopped of course.
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We know what Thomas is doing there, and why.  We know what he wants from Harry.  Why there is any reason at all to trust what he says with that motive established, I do not know. 

Shiro, on the other hand, is part of an organisation who explicitly choose to put faith ahead of evidence, as we see in their insistence on continually providing opportunities for Denarian hosts to repent.
That does not mean he is stupid. He had a lot of experience.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 08:44:07 PM by Arjan »
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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #138 on: December 15, 2017, 08:50:38 PM »
because after she died someone who's quite similar suddenly becomes the same uppity Red Noble Lady?

Arianna Ortega was around a lot longer than Bianca, she turned her husband back in the conquistador days and he turned Bianca some time later.  I see no reason to think Arianna is suddenly having a change in character to step up to replace Bianca, rather than Harry having got to a point of dealing with someone senior who was like that all along.

(My personal favourite notion for what's up with Bianca is that the Red Court deliberately picked their least stable lower-level type and rushed her promotion, before sending her to Chicago and again once she was there.  In order a) that she will sooner or later get into the fights they want got into with Harry, and b) that the higher a rank she is in, the bigger a bite they can legitimately take out of the Council as wergild when she dies.)

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Also because i'm guestimating in MM Susan will instead be that Ramp seeking ascension.

That would be pleasingly nasty, but I am pretty sure JB is not as nasty a person as I am.  If he was, Mirror Mirror would introduce Harry to a version of himself who'd done everything better, made different choices and engaged in different moral growth, saving thousands of lives, and Harry would forever after have to live with the knowledge of what a screw-up he was by comparison.

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I quite agree, she's not always the one at play, but she's the one all the strings connect back too. It's her role to break reality just as much as it is Mab's to preserve it, THAT is a balance not found in the two queens imo.

I remain entirely unconvinced Nemesis is a personification with any wants of its own, beyond "corrode Faerie constraints so that the Faerie in question can make choices that suit their own wants but are outside the bounds of their nature". (Maeve being a cruel type wants to get rid of competition, Aurora being an idealist wanting to end the conflict between Summer and Winter forever, Cat Sith being a proud ancient who would like nothing more than to decorate with the innards of the disrespectful wizard.)

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Neither want's to end reality, Mab wants it for herself(ergo she stops outsiders) and Titania want's to balance that directly. but neither want it gone(same could unfortunately be said of the Mothers, meaning they don't collect the balance on the next level up.

CD does seem to me to lock down that the Courts are meant to work together towards an overall goal despite the opposition between them along the way, which was pleasing confirmation of what I have been arguing... since DB was when I came on the forums, but I have believed it since reading SK.

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Yes... unfortunately I don't have a collective body of work. I'm not the kind of person who could organize that alone.(like Arnold/Terminator, i'm a firm believer there are no 'self made men')

Ah go on, write it up nicely, then we can ask to have it put in the Reference Collection.

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Well hot damn, you got a list? Cause it would be damn useful lol.

I've done that a few times, though I fear most of them are long over the event horizon of post deletion (and I do wish I had asked to have my Harry Dresden: the Case Against thread put in the reference collection);  give me a nice long afternoon with nothing else on my plate and I may do it again.

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  FM, for instance, was about breaking the curse to free Fearbringer from it's current Host/prison. GP tried to remake a spirit of terror directly in Kravos, ect. ect.

This and what you were saying earlier sounds like your master plan is  taking Faith/Hope/Love and their opposites as defining polarities in the shape of the DV, yes ?

I am inclined against, because that would make Christianity more defining in the DV than I think Jim intends to; the text so far feels like he is making really remarkable efforts to leave it open either way whether the Christian moral perspective and cosmology is more fundamental to the DV than any other (and I can sympathise with that at a meta-level, on not wanting to annoy either Christian or non-Christian readers.)  The Valkyries and the einherjar and the portrayal of Odin are entirely compatible with their cosmology and morality being as fundamental if not more so.

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The goal as far as N and the walkers go, is to find purchase inside reality, find identity, so they can then judge and destroy it in so much as their version is are Hell on earth scenario. This isn't the only Outsiders with beef, that's just theirs. On a different but related tier the Lord of Slowest Terror/Hunter of Shadows aka Chronos wants true Oblivion. for everything to return to it's original oneness, to collect all the 'shadows'. Aka those made by those who stand inside the light, insiders defining outsiders through penumbra effect. WE cast the shadows that give the outsiders definition, without us they have none. and that's the Original Darkness's goal, to be one again(see the Chronos similarity in the desire?)

OK, that's an interesting take on it.

I don't find that particularly compelling because we already have other dualities that serve that purpose, though.  Heaven and Hell, for one, Faerie and Fomor for another, Aesir and Jotun, and the existence of the Greek gods implies Titans.

I don't think the Old Ones of the Outsiders are going to turn out to be Titans or Jotun any more than they are Fallen.  Nicodemus and his like putting so much effort into corrupting souls means that at some level they have to see souls as worth obtaining.  Pretty much the only absolutely solid fact we have about the reality outside the Gates is that mordite is (a sort of) regular matter out there, and mordite is equally lethal to ordinary organic life as to soulless evil monsters like the Red Court.

To loop back to the actual thread title for the moment, there are evils that are playing on the other side of the chessboard trying to win things over from good, and there are other perpendicular struggles going on across the same chessboard between different forces, some of which occasionally make alliances with the more good/evil forces.  (Think of a game of Hope Verney four-player chess, or, if you want to move beyond dualities, to Orwell chess.)  And over and beyond that, we have entities that want to burn down the entire chessboard and dance in the ashes.  I don't believe that when Bob in GP refers to the Old Ones being driven beyond the Outer Gates he's referring to some sort of event in the mythical past of humanity, because any large amount of mordite being around on Earth is incompatible with humanity (and we know the DV had an evolutionary-scale history rather than a young-Earth (or young-Yggdrasil) creation because of everyone's favourite tyrannosaurus); I believe he is talking about the Big Bang, and that the Outsiders are not our shadows, but the predecessors of anything resembling rational ordered reality.

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But imo a lot of people have missed things already in the books out now.

I'm the last person who needs to be assured of that, sometimes it seems I spend half my posts pointing such things out....

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Idk if you remember me as Wizard Nelson

I remember the former, and coolness, I'd not connected the usernames.

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or Sibelis, but this is why I always liked you. Upon hearing a new and different theory instead of reflexively saying i'm wrong you ask me if I have sources you don't lol.

Oh, there are loads of things I didn't figure out on my own that seemed obvious once other people pointed them out (like for example the location of the Stone Table in SK and Harry's meeting with Malcolm in DB both echoing Demonreach) so I do try to be open to people figuring out stuff I have missed.

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If perchance you'd ever like to talk about my theory, which is grand and unifying as any other I've read here, i'd love for a chance to talk with someone who might actually understand it.

I'd certainly like to; please do start a thread.

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When they do they usually have specific purposes in mind behind it, in the DF it's Nemesis. I'd have to track down(or just use that excellent reference section while I can, duh) the precise scenes but everytime Murphy has mentioned it it's been directly related to a 'wonky' book where Nemesis is the likeliest puppeteer.

That seems to me barely one step up from saying that every time anyone claims things are getting bad, it must be Nemesis.  One of the things that was set up about Harry very early on is that he is familiar with genre fantasy and SF, that poem is enough of a go-to quote that I am not at all sold on it correlating with Nemesis.

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Course... in some ways i'm applying Nemesis as simply a destabilizing force, or should I say THE destabilizing force.(which the fomor court of water is precisely the Norse end state of the Fire and Ice balance btw, just part of the process of Force Majore Decay)

That's the scale of syncretism I think Jim is largely aiming to avoid, btw; I see nothing to see he'd wish to offend contemporary believers in the Norse deities either.  The Fomor are Celtic and he has put them in opposition to a version of Faerie that are more in a post-Celtic tradition than anything else; DV Odin is quite distinct from Faerie, and I suspect the Jotun to be equally distinct from the Fomor as and when we do see them. (Which isn't to say they might not find goals in common.  Just like Mab and Odin do, or like that centaur in SK, who given the established reality of Classical mythos in the DV, now reads to me as a Classical expatriate living in Summer.)

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Yes, but I will now use it as my own evidence lol. Mab has shown the winter court to time and again be interested in Nfected sources.

How many times?  The athame and Maeve, and indeed, given post-CD knowledge that Summer and Winter are working together, Aurora.  And it's not as if she went seeking out the athame.

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If she hid the coin's where about's in his mind then she took it is the likelist answer,

I think so too.

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giving rise to a very good reasoning behind Namshiel being the culprit or otherwise compromised.

Not giving anything to distinguish that from Namshiel being her agent she wants to protect and conceal, IMO.

I'm not seeing Mab's reasoning for hiding suspicion of Namshiel from Harry if Namshiel is an enemy, considering how much she uses him against her enemies;and if Namshiel is an enemy, that also leaves the favour Mab owes Andruiel in SG as an unexplained loose end.  So without definitive evidence either way, I incline for the explanation that ties up more circumstantial evidence.

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Recently(griff iirc) someone had a theory it's because his subconscious took control of his empty hand after the soulfire to secure the coin for Mab. It had a glove always, and was shown moving without his intention to snatch a coin at another point(need to make sur the wasn't HIS coin too, cause that would set a precedent on targeting him spc)

That's kind of neat; I still think that was resurgent Lash, though, and I remain to be convinced Bonnie is not Lash.

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I find it likely when she took his Rod she made another deal with his subconscious mind coin, she does so when she attacks him again when he brings it up perhaps..

Works for me.

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I have a feeling no matter who said it you'd lawyer up a perspective against their authenticity though lol.

Pfft.  When new text smashes one of my favourite theories to splinters I abandon it without looking back.  (Well, except for still being sad that Morgan and Simon Pietrovich were not a couple.)

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Jim's world is steeped in it's mechanics. I try to see them properly, though holes exist where only clue's are given.

Yes, but the thing that is absolutely key to my methodology, that I seem to have the hardest time persuading other people of, is that the holes are as significant as the clues.  The patterns in what people don't say, don't think, don't know, are as important as what they do.

Look at the first two-thirds or so of SK, where Elaine leads Harry around by the nose (until he gets to the Mothers' cabin) in order to get him to steal the Unravelling.  Look at SmF where we can see Harry's mind shying away from thinking about his blasting rod, sometimes accompanied by headaches, in places where he would otherwise think of it, even though he has no idea himself that that is going on.

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Ah... not bad, but I think it was mostly to get the 3 eye drug out there to start effecting mortal belief and weaken the veil more. As Storm Front is literally the storm front of events leading up to the storm in Dead Beat. It's reference to the stirring up of the ghosts and dark magic, the beginning of trying to pierce the veil as Mort mentions in both GP and DB iirc.

That could be it, I suppose.  I had not thought of that and I like it.

Tell me, do you reckon the Unseelie Incursion of 1994 when wherever-it-was disappeared for a few hours tied in here?  I suspect that is set-up for all of Chicago falling into the NN during the BAT or the immediate lead-up.

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Funny you mention the scene outside of Sells house though, i'm fairly sure that's the first time Nemesis made it's presence known in the books.

It works for me without needing Nemesis at all, because so very many of the influences on Harry's life are trying to encourage him to give in to accepting dark power for his own selfish ends rather than reasonably doing good.  SF has the moment outside the Sells house, FM has him nearly being corrupted by the hexenwulf belt, and in GP he gives in when he burns down Bianca's party and again when he kills Bianca.  This pattern's been there since Justin.

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I have this rather simply put theory that N get's purchase whenever magic is used to violate freewill, which most all the Fae infected were either directly or indirectly around strong active sources of mortal magic or wizards themselves.

That feels almost the opposite of how I read it, that it is causing evil by providing free will that should not be there.

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In this case the reaction from N saved Harry because it was his free will being violated by the aura of dark magic. I have no real proof of this, it just aligns well with my theorem.

Fair enough.  I tend to read that voice as the first example we have of the insight Maggie gave Harry, which Lea does a Dumbo's feather job on him with in BR (note that the other time he figures something out that is specifically referred to as insight, it is working out Lea must have bargained with his mother, in SK).

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Why can't the whites be doing work into how the Reds spells work? Raith again, is actually very interested in magic apparently.

No reason why they can't.  I think this again is slightly more moving parts than my notion here though.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 08:54:24 PM by the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh »
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #139 on: December 15, 2017, 09:24:02 PM »
This discussion feels like it's reaching an impasse, so I am going to trim bits that feel deadlocked.

Numbers, not strength.

Have you an exact quote to hand?  I am pretty sure she says combat strength.

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And what would that have meant in practice? It means the red court can keep demanding things.

No it wouldn't.  They get the peace treaty, status quo re-established, they no longer have the right to demand anything.  Harry parsing this as being about not giving in to bullies is a self-serving rationale for not accepting the political necessity of give and take to maintain peace and save lives.

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They would simply add more demands until the council had to refuse.

When?

The Council say "yes, we got your peace offer, we accept the terms." The Reds change the terms. They are now outside the protection of the Accords.  They get exterminated in a few days.

The thing that seems worth keeping front and centre here is that Mab is an entity, from a mythical tradition, where no amount of murder or slaughter can be anywhere near so big a crime as breaking your word.

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The red court has allies to and you dismiss them all the time.

Yes I do.  For two reasons.

One, that the Red Court are a martial organisation.  We know they can't summon Outsiders, because only humans can.  We know they are lousy at magic generally, because Arianna, one of their oldest and strongest, is about as capable and flexible in her magical duel as a two-bit hobby sorcerer like Kravos.  Nobody has ever said the Red Court's strength is assessed by their ability to bring in allies.  Eb and WoJ say the White Coucnil's is.  Because, I would say, fighting smart rather than just hard is what makes wizards wizards.

And secondly, because the Red Court's allies do not actually help them.  They set up Bianca, dragging the Reds into a war they cannot win.  They summon Outsiders to supposedly help the Reds fight the White Council at the end of DB (and possibly also lie to them about imminent post-Darkhallow help being on its way) which leads directly to the Red Court getting near-obliterated by Summer in PG.  And when the Reds are on the ropes in Changes, their supposed allies pursue their own interests elsewhere and leave the Red Court to die.

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It is about allies you can reliably count on. The Tengu are, Winter is not.

If you are willing to disregard all the evidence I have pointed out as to how Mab is absolutely reliable as an enforcer of the Accords, yes.

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The attack was too well coordinated, they did not even wait to see how it would end. That is most likely because the attack was agreed with the red court before. They attacked the white council, the victor of Chichen Itza.

You think everybody who would like to see the White Council taken down has to be a deliberate ally of the Red Court?  That feels to me like imposing a very dubious duality on a complex supernatural setting with multiple power groups each with their own agenda.

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If they were just profiting from the chaos they would have acted later both because they wouldn't be that sure about when and who to attack and because it would be safer to attack the loser.

You have some reason for thinking the Fomor have no decent intelligence capacities, here ?

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They would be all over latin america to profit from the fall of the red court and not fighting a winner. Unless they of course thought the red court, their allies, had a safe plan for winning the war end they would loose the opportunity to profit from the white councils defeat if they did not join.

So you are disregarding the post-Changes evidence that expanding into the space made by the fall of the Red Court is exactly what the Fomor are doing ?

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Besides this is a magical world based on ancient traditions and believes. Some things have to be done a certain way. It is their nature.

If you want to apply that to the Red Court's "sacrifice party" (despite that it is actually about working a major piece of ritual magic to win a war and all the sacrifices we see are to that end) why are you reluctant to apply it to the Accords as we see them enforced?

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Probably a slow process but that changes nothing. Expansion in an occupied world is not possible without violence.

You are for some reason discarding the possibility of conversions, here?  Offering people the chance to become a vampire and live forever?  Despite that we are told at the end of Changes that when the Red Court was annihilated, that took out people all through governments and other power structures around their part of the world?

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She is not there to protect anyone except reality in general. She protects her accords but see what happened in white night for example. The aggrieved party must take action otherwise there is no case and Mab offers only a framework for resolving conflicts.

They are for protecting signatories.  I don't know why you keep moving away from me making this point.

The Whites hunting the low-power magicians in WN is not an Accords violation, because the low-power magicians are not affiliated with the White Council.  Harry stepping in to protect them is something he does of his own volition, not because the Council ordered him to.

Likewise, Susan or any of the other victims in GP are not Accords violations. Because regular humans are not protected under the Accords.  mab does not have to lift a finger in their defence.

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If you kill the whole red court there is no one to take action, that works even if the red court had not broken the accords.

I do not believe this in the slightest.  Exterminate the Reds without cause, and you're as much at fault as Nicodemus is for attacking Ivy without cause.

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It is much like Njal's saga. A very informative book about a norse feud in the tenth century.

And faerie are not Norse.  We see the Norse mythos in the DV as a separate thing.  Odin, in his Kringle guise, has to some extent signed up to play by Faerie rules.

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Besides the weregeld for simon and his crew would be much higher than that for Bianca.

Bianca is promoted to a Margravine; one step below a Duke, two below the Red King.  Give that the red Court definitely has barons and knights, and that set of titles implies the existence of earls and counts and so on, she is nearer the top than the bottom of their ladder.  The White Council has the Merlin, the Senior Council, and everyone else.  Someone in the middle rank is the appropriate exchange.

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Who also knows the red court and their nature better than we do. Actually ask the merlin in Changes, he would have told us the shark's nature would not change.

Yep. The non-suicidal nature which led them to sign the Accords and spent centuries abiding by them and not getting into wars they can't win.  The nature that could have been restored by Harry refusing to be baited into starting a war, reporting to Eb, having Eb draw together the Grey Council and like-minded souls like Luccio earlier, sit down and negotiate with Ortega, and get rid of the Red Court's so-called "allies" in order to restore the status quo that's been shown to work for centuries, and save at least the forty thousand lives the nerve-gas bomb killed in the Congo at the end of DB. (Like preventing 9/11 ten times over.)
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Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #140 on: December 15, 2017, 09:48:09 PM »
What would Bianca's equal in the WC be? Luccio or Morgan?
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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #141 on: December 15, 2017, 09:51:19 PM »
What would Bianca's equal in the WC be? Luccio or Morgan?
It is about comparable position and Harry would do I suppose but Simon and ritinue were overkill, that strike was meant to seriously harm the white councils combat strength not just to get equal befor negotiating.
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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #142 on: December 15, 2017, 10:24:05 PM »
This discussion feels like it's reaching an impasse, so I am going to trim bits that feel deadlocked.
Have you an exact quote to hand?  I am pretty sure she says combat strength.
We know the average age of thee wardens went down and we know Ramirez was speculating about lowering recruiting standards even more. I remember the quote but I forgot the book so I can not easily find it.
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No it wouldn't.  They get the peace treaty, status quo re-established, they no longer have the right to demand anything.  Harry parsing this as being about not giving in to bullies is a self-serving rationale for not accepting the political necessity of give and take to maintain peace and save lives.

When?

The Council say "yes, we got your peace offer, we accept the terms." The Reds change the terms. They are now outside the protection of the Accords.  They get exterminated in a few days.
Really? That is too far removed from the reality in the dresdenverse. Nobody would expect that. If that were the case there would be no war in the supernatural world at all.
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The thing that seems worth keeping front and centre here is that Mab is an entity, from a mythical tradition, where no amount of murder or slaughter can be anywhere near so big a crime as breaking your word.
She is not breaking her word. It is just that the accord do not enforce that much. Mab does not want to be dragged down in policing all conflicts in the supernatural world.
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Yes I do.  For two reasons.

One, that the Red Court are a martial organisation.  We know they can't summon Outsiders, because only humans can.  We know they are lousy at magic generally, because Arianna, one of their oldest and strongest, is about as capable and flexible in her magical duel as a two-bit hobby sorcerer like Kravos.  Nobody has ever said the Red Court's strength is assessed by their ability to bring in allies.  Eb and WoJ say the White Coucnil's is.  Because, I would say, fighting smart rather than just hard is what makes wizards wizards.

And secondly, because the Red Court's allies do not actually help them.  They set up Bianca, dragging the Reds into a war they cannot win.  They summon Outsiders to supposedly help the Reds fight the White Council at the end of DB (and possibly also lie to them about imminent post-Darkhallow help being on its way) which leads directly to the Red Court getting near-obliterated by Summer in PG.  And when the Reds are on the ropes in Changes, their supposed allies pursue their own interests elsewhere and leave the Red Court to die.
The red court did think it had enough strength assembled at Chichen Itza to beat off any assault. The probably wanted Harry to try because it would fail. There is no reason to think Cowl did not try for the darkhallow.

With their allies they nearly defeated the white council, I would not discard them.

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If you are willing to disregard all the evidence I have pointed out as to how Mab is absolutely reliable as an enforcer of the Accords, yes.
Because nobody in the books takes your position, not even something that looks like it and I do not think Mab would bind herself to police the supernatural world to that extend. She does not even police Winter to that extend.

The accords are much less than you seem to think.

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You think everybody who would like to see the White Council taken down has to be a deliberate ally of the Red Court?  That feels to me like imposing a very dubious duality on a complex supernatural setting with multiple power groups each with their own agenda.
The Fomor has been helping the red court before and are a known foe of the fairy courts. Their agendas were compatible. The coordination of their last attack suggests they just went in even more.
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You have some reason for thinking the Fomor have no decent intelligence capacities, here ?
Would they not retink their strategy of attacking the white council after the complete destruction of the red court by the white council? But if they already had attacked it would be too late.

Mark that there had been no declaration of war, just a surprise attack apparently without provocation. It seems to be OK under the accords. We have to see how the peace nogotiations will end.
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So you are disregarding the post-Changes evidence that expanding into the space made by the fall of the Red Court is exactly what the Fomor are doing ?
That was after the fact. Of course they try to grab whatever they can get but they have also chosen their enemies.


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If you want to apply that to the Red Court's "sacrifice party" (despite that it is actually about working a major piece of ritual magic to win a war and all the sacrifices we see are to that end) why are you reluctant to apply it to the Accords as we see them enforced?
Because the way you seem to think the accords work is not how they seem to work and is also not what I expect from a set of rules based on weregeld, duelling and such things. Not from old style beings. This is not how things used to work and the supernatural world usually is more than several centuries behind in many respects.

Just go a millenium back in mentality and then you get a better idea about how the Sidhe and oother supernaturals work. They are not that modern.
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You are for some reason discarding the possibility of conversions, here?  Offering people the chance to become a vampire and live forever?  Despite that we are told at the end of Changes that when the Red Court was annihilated, that took out people all through governments and other power structures around their part of the world?
That would work if they were expanding in a purely mortal world but that does not work with other supernatural groups.
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They are for protecting signatories.  I don't know why you keep moving away from me making this point.
Because nothing in the settings supports that. Mark that when Marcone was abducted Gard needed Harry to call upon the accords. If Harry had not taken action nothing would have happened.


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The Whites hunting the low-power magicians in WN is not an Accords violation, because the low-power magicians are not affiliated with the White Council.  Harry stepping in to protect them is something he does of his own volition, not because the Council ordered him to.

Likewise, Susan or any of the other victims in GP are not Accords violations. Because regular humans are not protected under the Accords.  mab does not have to lift a finger in their defence.

I do not believe this in the slightest.  Exterminate the Reds without cause, and you're as much at fault as Nicodemus is for attacking Ivy without cause.
But if there was nobody to call upon the accords or demand retribution nothing would happen. Ask Gard.
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And faerie are not Norse.  We see the Norse mythos in the DV as a separate thing.  Odin, in his Kringle guise, has to some extent signed up to play by Faerie rules.
This was the culture and law in much of europe with slight variations. The irish would not have acted much different. Njal is even a celtic name, it is a norse version of Neil.


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Bianca is promoted to a Margravine; one step below a Duke, two below the Red King.  Give that the red Court definitely has barons and knights, and that set of titles implies the existence of earls and counts and so on, she is nearer the top than the bottom of their ladder.  The White Council has the Merlin, the Senior Council, and everyone else.  Someone in the middle rank is the appropriate exchange.
Formal ranks are not everything and the white council is very conscious about social position. It is about a comparable place in the other group and Simon + ritinue is way above Bianca.
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Yep. The non-suicidal nature which led them to sign the Accords and spent centuries abiding by them and not getting into wars they can't win.  The nature that could have been restored by Harry refusing to be baited into starting a war, reporting to Eb, having Eb draw together the Grey Council and like-minded souls like Luccio earlier, sit down and negotiate with Ortega, and get rid of the Red Court's so-called "allies" in order to restore the status quo that's been shown to work for centuries, and save at least the forty thousand lives the nerve-gas bomb killed in the Congo at the end of DB. (Like preventing 9/11 ten times over.)
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #143 on: December 16, 2017, 06:37:15 AM »
Also the Fomor are betraying everything far too easy for Mab to be the violent and extremely effective defender of the accords members. It is in their nature to betray and Lea expected betrayal in some sort in the short story but they are aware how things work and few supernaturals will knowingly follow their nature blindly if it leads to immediate dead.

It does not.
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Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #144 on: December 16, 2017, 08:59:40 AM »
Formor are a strange group. They have strong holds on various US and European cities. Their main actions have been enslavement and betrayal. They have received a smackdown from Marcone, Murphy, and Molly. Several different supernatural groups are directly opposed to them. I don't think Harry has had a direct, in person dealing with them. Their long term goal seems to be revenge. They are like supernatural sea cockroaches.
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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #145 on: December 16, 2017, 09:22:00 AM »
Also, they're apparently weak enough to be kept down by the Red Court despite being strong enough to fight literally every Accord Member at once.

Somehow.

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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #146 on: December 16, 2017, 09:24:43 AM »
Yeah, that is another point of weirdness.
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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #147 on: December 16, 2017, 11:25:16 AM »
I'm guessing, that the reasoning will be 300 - a small power can stop a large power passing through a bottleneck, but once the large power comes through, because the guard dogs are gone, it's a nuisance.
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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #148 on: December 16, 2017, 12:56:54 PM »
Yeah, that is another point of weirdness.
To which the answer is they were not kept down by the red court in particular. They were invited by the red court to join tha war during changes as allies of the red court.
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Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #149 on: December 16, 2017, 01:07:52 PM »
And, the fomor secretly encouraged the RCV downfall.
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