Poll

Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?

Mab
1 (1.1%)
Nicodemus
18 (20%)
Ariana
2 (2.2%)
Red King
6 (6.7%)
Lord Raith
2 (2.2%)
Lara Raith
1 (1.1%)
Cowl
1 (1.1%)
Corpsetaker
2 (2.2%)
Maeve
1 (1.1%)
Mavra
5 (5.6%)
Bianca
0 (0%)
Polonius
1 (1.1%)
Peabody
4 (4.4%)
Marcone
0 (0%)
Kemmler
16 (17.8%)
Shagnasty
25 (27.8%)
Evil Bob
5 (5.6%)
Dracul
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Author Topic: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?  (Read 31462 times)

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #120 on: December 13, 2017, 02:59:50 PM »
Sure they were.  The Grey Council are visibly wizards.  Harry is a White Council member.  To anyone who doesn't have the inside information we do from Harry's viewpoint, that's clearly a White Council operation.
Odin, Mab, Lea, The knights of the cross, an archangel, ....

And arguably Harry was there for Winter and not for the white council. His extra power surely came from there.

Quote
Seems clear to me Arthur Langtry knows it's coming.
He is as clueless as ever, I do not think he is in the grey council. He was preparing the counterattack when everything was already finished.
Quote
I'd argue that an accurate assessment of the Council's strength is why the Red Court have not been at war for them for centuries, and waited until they could put the Council legally in the wrong to do so.
The red court had simply other priorities first.
Quote
Their supposed allies hanging them out to dry is pretty visible there, yes.
Their Fomor allies coordinating their attack with the red court is clearly visible. Their warlock allies were simply not invited in what clearly was a huge party for vampires. Especially because they were all more concerned with their internal struggle for dominance than their white council enemies which shows how seriously they took the danger. Not.
Quote
My previous post should show why I do not agree with that take on things.
Without Winter Chichen Itza was not even possible.
Quote
It's there if you can see through Haryr's prejudices.
Not even in a loose remark or observation, nowhere. Not from anyone in the white council. They have a clear idea about who is human and who is not.
For them the single killing of a human with magic is a greater crime than the killing of a complete vampire court.
Quote
The Accords, sfaict, protects all its signatories, Council or Red Court.  Hence, for example, Marcone being keen to sign up.  I can totally buy tha structure having an anti-Outsider purpose.
They offer very little protection. They offer structure if the parties want to use it.
Quote
Since when does the person who starts the attacks make the decision about war or peace ?  It's the choice of how to respond that determines whether that is a war.
To attack is to start the hostilities, that is really starting the war. Not defending yourself just makes it a very short war after which the war atrocities can begin. Nobody is expecting the council not to defend themselves anyway because being captured means being turned so choosing to attack means choosing war and not negotiations.


Quote
Disagreed entirely.  The Red Court is deeply divided. 
Sure and we see in Changes that the war was merely a tool in their internal conflicts. Just like roman generals attacked barbarians to increase their personal  power in the roman empire. It shows how seriously they took the white council, not very.

If they really thought the white council a serious enemy they would be more united. The red king had the power to enforce that but for internal political reasons he chose not to.
Quote
There would not have been a peace offer after Archangel if the Reds thought the Council was a pushover, and Ortega would not have been working so hard to stop the war in DM if he thought the war was winnable.
That was just to see how far they could push the white council and to keep the pretense of being the aggrieved party under the accords.  trusting Ortega's words is foolish.Besides the offers were designed to be rejected.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline Kindler

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1139
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #121 on: December 13, 2017, 03:29:53 PM »
Archangel was not a proportional response to Harry's attack on Bianca. It was an escalation. They went straight for Simon Petrovich, a Senior Council member. It was a major political assassination.

They had no real interest in peace. Ortega wanted to delay the conflict so that they could increase their numbers now that they had a better idea of what the White Council can do.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #122 on: December 13, 2017, 04:04:22 PM »
For a proportional attack you go for someone with a similar position. Then you can make peace with the other family without one family paying too much weregeld to the other.

Read the Icelandic saga's, in particular Njal's saga, to get an idea. But for that both parties must believe the other party can continue the feud and both parties must agree the cost for that is just too high even with all the emotions pushing them to revenge.

The alternative is killing them all or cowering them. Looking only at the proportionality of the attack cowering into submission was a possibility but that never ends well either.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #123 on: December 13, 2017, 08:10:03 PM »
N has appeared or messed with every court, Reds in the beginning, likely inspiring the later division in the Reds in CH,

What evidence do we have for Nemesis affecting the Reds?

Quote
Cowl trying to control the 'election' in WN of Wamps,(Outsiders, OUTSIDERS EVERYWHERE!),

Lots of Outsiders, and Cowl.  No Nemesis.

Quote
Mavra seems to be the most cuddly, buddy, buddy N ally ever... I've not seen any explanations or anything that explains anything to satisfaction.

What needs explanation that has not already been covered?

Harry likes big simple one-size-fits-all conspiracy theories.  The Black Council serves as one for him in PG, and he applies it to a pile of things where there are as many as five plausible different causes.  Nemesis is the same as of CD, and I find it equally plausible, that is, not at all.

Quote
Other than intentionally passing along an Nfected knife to Lea? For Cowl that would seem to be enough.

And that fits also with Nemesis being a very limited, faerie-specific infection that is a tool of Cowl and his allies, rather than the global contagion Harry likes to think it is.

Quote
Outsider connections, Peabody's 'the End is Nigh' command is pretty telling when your lookin at what N's trying to do of course.

The assumption that it is trying to do anything rather than one more weapon in the game seems unfounded to me

Quote
Nico doing it too means nothing certainly? It's later disappearance...

Namshiel's disappearance is perfectly well explained by it being cut down and any of a number of people there stealing the coin for their own reasons.

Quote
You can always choose to see things a certain way, but i'd like to see what evidence there is N is a fae only thing(especially when it's been described as a human affliction too,

Described by whom, exactly, and what are they supposed to know.

We don't need Nemesis to explain factional differences within the Red Court.  We have the plausible explanation of outside sorcerors, whom we know they work with, manipulating them, and we have Cowl and Mavra as plausible candidates.

We don't need Nemesis to explain the White Court's differences, we see Cowl manipulating them.  We don't need Nemesis to explain Victor Sells, we have the evidence that that was a known Red Court spell he was using pointed out in Changes,  And we have the Red Court researcher in "Love Hurts" as a plausible alternate explanation for where the hexenwulf belts in FM come from.

Nemesis being behind all this stuff is unnescessary.
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #124 on: December 13, 2017, 08:37:01 PM »
Odin, Mab, Lea, The knights of the cross, an archangel, ....

Mab is lending her approval to the Council's legitimate counterstrike against an Accords violator.  The Knights move in mysterious ways, and Uriel's involvement is by no means visible, nor are there witnesses around to proclaim Odin's involvement to the world.

Even if nobody except Eb on the Grey Council is White Council, to the rest of the world it is a White Council attack.

Quote
And arguably Harry was there for Winter and not for the white council. His extra power surely came from there.

Which proves his allegiance as much as the tengu showing up proves Eb's.  Getting power from other sources by being clever is what wizards do. Doesn't make them not Council members.

Quote
He is as clueless as ever, I do not think he is in the grey council.

Assertion is not argument.  Do you have any logical reason for discounting the notion that Harry taking him as clueless is 75% Harry being prejudiced and 25% Langtry being skilled enough a politician to give a misleading impression when it serves his purposes?  Or for discounting his surety at the beginning of Changes?

Quote
Their Fomor allies coordinating their attack with the red court is clearly visible.

For values of "ally" who do nothing to help.  The Fomor taking advantage of the chaos when the Reds go down does not look like an alliance to me.  if anything, it looks like them planning on the Reds going down.

Quote
Their warlock allies were simply not invited in what clearly was a huge party for vampires.

"simply" and "clearly" read as assumptions to me.  Their warlock "allies" are intentionally abandoning them to my mind.

Quote
Especially because they were all more concerned with their internal struggle for dominance than their white council enemies which shows how seriously they took the danger.

I have not, that I recall, argued that the Red Court were not complete idiots to underestimate the Council.

Quote
Without Winter Chichen Itza was not even possible.

Which requires casually ignoring that the second youngest of the Senior Council, all by himself, can pull satellites from the sky and trigger massive volcanoes.  The Senior Council's ability to nuke Chichen Itza from orbit at any time seems pretty well established to me.

Quote
Not even in a loose remark or observation, nowhere. Not from anyone in the white council. They have a clear idea about who is human and who is not.
For them the single killing of a human with magic is a greater crime than the killing of a complete vampire court.

After four hundred years of peaceful co-existence, and willingness to abide by two separate attempts to end the war peacefully and legally?

Quote
They offer very little protection. They offer structure if the parties want to use it.

I believe we have WoJ that Mab did not give people a choice about signing on to the Accords.


Quote
Sure and we see in Changes that the war was merely a tool in their internal conflicts. Just like roman generals attacked barbarians to increase their personal  power in the roman empire.

Half the red Court seem to be persuaded the war can be won, by and with the aid of their warlock "allies".  The other half, rightly realise not.  Harry in changes thinking they have an insane leadership is oversimplifying what is clearly a power struggle.

Quote
That was just to see how far they could push the white council and to keep the pretense of being the aggrieved party under the accords.

Why do you keep calling it a pretence? 

Quote
trusting Ortega's words is foolish.Besides the offers were designed to be rejected.

The Council was quite ready to accept the one in SK.  And I am trusting Susan's assessment of Ortega in DM at least as much as Ortega himself.
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #125 on: December 13, 2017, 08:39:56 PM »
Archangel was not a proportional response to Harry's attack on Bianca. It was an escalation. They went straight for Simon Petrovich, a Senior Council member. It was a major political assassination.

You don't think that's a reasonable wergild for a member of the red Court aristocracy who had just been promoted ?

Quote
Ortega wanted to delay the conflict so that they could increase their numbers now that they had a better idea of what the White Council can do.

Which would, by my argument above, take them another couple of centuries at least.
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline jonas

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1258
  • Surpassed Ms. Duck
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #126 on: December 13, 2017, 09:08:40 PM »
What evidence do we have for Nemesis affecting the Reds?
Bianca actually. Everything about her. Pretty sure Uppity Red Nobles seeking to ascend and intercourt Sorcerous activities were specifically on multiple lists.

Quote
Lots of Outsiders, and Cowl.  No Nemesis.
There by ignoring all connections between Outsiders, Walkers and Nemesis. That Nemesis's presence in CD was manifested by a Walker and a bunch of minor outsiders trying to break open the Max security Prison.

and actually, if you look at how the Fae pay lip service to the Balance/rent by not violating Hope, Love or Faith, I can directly connect here what you call N to something not directly Nemesis itself.  Hope is balance with Fear, Fae service is Duty,(which I can totally find a complex paper someone else wrote on why Duty is a warriors form of Hope, but I lack the ability to sufficiently explain to my own satisfaction) Faith is keeping their word and Love is respecting Homestead laws(which love is the primary force of empowerment in a familial nature) So, Maeve breaking her bond to mab had more to do with Fearbringers power than another's... meaning Harry's 'sapper' theory is also skewed from the truth...
Quote
What needs explanation that has not already been covered?
What's been satisfactorily explained?
If anything were we wouldn't have a debate on the boards about it... so pretty much anything needing discussed
Quote
Harry likes big simple one-size-fits-all conspiracy theories.  The Black Council serves as one for him in PG, and he applies it to a pile of things where there are as many as five plausible different causes.  Nemesis is the same as of CD, and I find it equally plausible, that is, not at all.
But your insisting the opposite it feels like, that anything not Nemesis is not related to Nemesis..

Quote
that fits also with Nemesis being a very limited, faerie-specific infection that is a tool of Cowl and his allies, rather than the global contagion Harry likes to think it is.
Nemesis infects Fairie specifically and easily because that's where they got their power, that's why Mab has an aspect of Judgement. From the Literal Greek Goddess Nemesis, and the Scales, those are HER scales. they fed her to the stone table and split the power and the image so that their would be no mirror not already balanced inside reality. So she'd have no foothold. Anything that disturbs the alloy of fairie has Nemesis in it's cracks even if Nemesis didn't do it herself.

Quote
The assumption that it is trying to do anything rather than one more weapon in the game seems unfounded to me
It's actually a quote from something else iirc. Mayhaps the Yeats second coming,which is ALL about the coming apocalypse and is specifically mentioned by Murphy whenever things are getting wonky, also quoted by Maeve about being the 'falcon'. Nemesis is the destabilizing factor and then he quotes something that's been reference all over regarding that same destabilization...

Quote
Namshiel's disappearance is perfectly well explained by it being cut down and any of a number of people there stealing the coin for their own reasons.
Leaving out the Arctis Tor events... very selective reasoning on that.

Quote
Described by whom, exactly, and what are they supposed to know.
Multiple places, of course if we take everything said as wrong, then we have no idea what going on and neither you a leg to stand on as I can point this out too for literally everything, as everything is from Harry's perspective. So saying multiple sources are inherently lying or wrong becomes and endless cycle.

Quote
We don't need Nemesis to explain factional differences within the Red Court.  We have the plausible explanation of outside sorcerors, whom we know they work with, manipulating them, and we have Cowl and Mavra as plausible candidates.

We don't need Nemesis to explain the White Court's differences, we see Cowl manipulating them.  We don't need Nemesis to explain Victor Sells, we have the evidence that that was a known Red Court spell he was using pointed out in Changes,  And we have the Red Court researcher in "Love Hurts" as a plausible alternate explanation for where the hexenwulf belts in FM come from.
Quite frankly as Mr. GK is the resident(as in resident of fricken reality) expert on said things I wouldn't see why we should simply dismiss him either. We have Odins comment about Harry not yet seeing who the real players are too, but that won't count I suppose... and just so I feel like i'm not the only one getting holes poked into them, for what purpose did the Red court thereby empower the Shadowman to do what he did in SF? Seems you like to have all your ducks in a row, what you got there? Cause fyi, it's also surmised Raith and his books of Magic were involved, what with the Name of Shadowmans old company having the word Silver in it and Lust being the most effective spellframe... funny that, a Red used spell is best used with Whites Lust power...

Quote
Nemesis being behind all this stuff is unnescessary.
Nemesis having Nothing to do with it all seems unlikely.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 09:24:59 PM by jonas »
Quote from: A. Lanning
I'm sorry, My responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
Quote from: C Chaplin
...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #127 on: December 13, 2017, 10:11:08 PM »
Mab is lending her approval to the Council's legitimate counterstrike against an Accords violator.  The Knights move in mysterious ways, and Uriel's involvement is by no means visible, nor are there witnesses around to proclaim Odin's involvement to the world.

Even if nobody except Eb on the Grey Council is White Council, to the rest of the world it is a White Council attack.
Switching between real and perceived strength. The perceived strength of the council certainly grew after Chichen Itza but the real strength did not and now they are at war with the Fomor.

And the red courts actions and aims were not based on the white councils perceived strength after they were destroyed but on how strong the white council seemed to be around Summer Knight and that was weak.
Quote
Which proves his allegiance as much as the tengu showing up proves Eb's.  Getting power from other sources by being clever is what wizards do. Doesn't make them not Council members.
In this case it did not prove the white councils strength, it proved that other powers wanted the red court gone.
Quote
Assertion is not argument.  Do you have any logical reason for discounting the notion that Harry taking him as clueless is 75% Harry being prejudiced and 25% Langtry being skilled enough a politician to give a misleading impression when it serves his purposes?  Or for discounting his surety at the beginning of Changes?
I assert things when they seem overly obvious to me.

The merlin is not shown to be as peceptive as say the gatekeeper.
Quote
For values of "ally" who do nothing to help.  The Fomor taking advantage of the chaos when the Reds go down does not look like an alliance to me. 
They are now at war with the white council and that started exactly at the same moment the big red court attack was supposed to happen. That is coordinated and that would have helped the red court enormously if it was still there to profit from it. They did not back out when they heard about the downfal of the red court because by then it was probably too late.
Quote
if anything, it looks like them planning on the Reds going down.
Attacking the white council exactly at the moment of the great red court attack is a strange way of achieving that. Doing nothing would have been better.

Quote
"simply" and "clearly" read as assumptions to me.  Their warlock "allies" are intentionally abandoning them to my mind.
That is not taking into consideration the nature of that party. Big sacrifices on high altars are feasts were everyone eats. You don't invite food to these parties as guests unless you want to eat them. This was a private vampire thing

Quote
I have not, that I recall, argued that the Red Court were not complete idiots to underestimate the Council.

Which requires casually ignoring that the second youngest of the Senior Council, all by himself, can pull satellites from the sky and trigger massive volcanoes.  The Senior Council's ability to nuke Chichen Itza from orbit at any time seems pretty well established to me.
I don't see evidence for that.


Quote
After four hundred years of peaceful co-existence, and willingness to abide by two separate attempts to end the war peacefully and legally?
There is no reason to believe the red council was peaceful all that time, there is more in the world than the white council to fight with. They expanded from their original base in central america to a far bigger empire just before their fall. That does not happen without war.

Quote
I believe we have WoJ that Mab did not give people a choice about signing on to the Accords.
Sure but Mab is not there to protect puppies. The accords leave a lot of room for war and killing. They are not there to protect the weak but to give tools to end endless cycles of pointless violence. But both parties need to agree to stop the war.
Quote
Half the red Court seem to be persuaded the war can be won, by and with the aid of their warlock "allies".  The other half, rightly realise not.  Harry in changes thinking they have an insane leadership is oversimplifying what is clearly a power struggle.
There is a lot of power struggle in the lower ranks but the red king and his inner circle seemed in control. It is normal in some dictatorship to encourage conflicts between your underlings to keep them better in control and distract their attention from the king.
Quote
Why do you keep calling it a pretence? 

The Council was quite ready to accept the one in SK.  And I am trusting Susan's assessment of Ortega in DM at least as much as Ortega himself.
And I am trusting Shiro and Thomas who both know better.
WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline Arjan

  • Seriously?
  • ***
  • Posts: 13235
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #128 on: December 13, 2017, 10:19:50 PM »
You don't think that's a reasonable wergild for a member of the red Court aristocracy who had just been promoted ?
She was not one of  the original Maya and she was not on the top level of the pyramid by far. Killing a comparable member of the council would be something like an experienced warden or something, Morgan would be pushing it. A senior council member with a strong squad of combat mages is overkill.

Senior council must be comparable with inner circle if there is even a pretence of the red court and the white council of equal strength. If Bianca was equal to a senior council member that would mean the red court was far stronger than the white council.

That could have been the message as well. One of our minor nobility is equal to your top people. You are nothing. Surrender to our terms.


Bianca was minor nobility nothing more. The red court had loads of them.

WG+++: The White God is Mister.
SH[Elaine+++]

Offline wardenferry419

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5263
  • Can I get a Hells Bells !!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #129 on: December 14, 2017, 10:50:08 AM »
I really don't think there is common ground or mutual disagreement to be reached on this topic.
Make Mine Butcher!
Who do I have to turn to ice to get a whiskey on the rocks?

Offline Firestarter

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 140
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #130 on: December 14, 2017, 11:01:14 AM »
Actually, I think that the only "evil" character is Kemmler. He's hurting people for entirely selfish reasons from what we've learned.

The other characters have either a higher goal in mind or are insane. This doesn't make their action less bad, but it doesn't mean, that they are evil. They have a goal and are simply unscrupulous. "The end justifies the means" I can't call that evil. I may give it various names, but I can't call it evil.
... hear me roar ;)

Offline jonas

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1258
  • Surpassed Ms. Duck
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #131 on: December 14, 2017, 11:12:14 AM »
Actually, I think that the only "evil" character is Kemmler. He's hurting people for entirely selfish reasons from what we've learned.

The other characters have either a higher goal in mind or are insane. This doesn't make their action less bad, but it doesn't mean, that they are evil. They have a goal and are simply unscrupulous. "The end justifies the means" I can't call that evil. I may give it various names, but I can't call it evil.
How do we know he wasn't one or the other? He was very steeped in Dark Magic corruption at the least, which is insanity inducing. Mayhaps how he appeared in the recent short story is indicative he was once more of a man then Monster?
Quote from: A. Lanning
I'm sorry, My responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
Quote from: C Chaplin
...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.

Offline wardenferry419

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5263
  • Can I get a Hells Bells !!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #132 on: December 14, 2017, 11:34:05 AM »
Like Harry, Kemmler was a man that made choices. Unlike Harry, Kemmler let his good intentions slip away.
Make Mine Butcher!
Who do I have to turn to ice to get a whiskey on the rocks?

Offline Firestarter

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 140
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #133 on: December 14, 2017, 11:43:56 AM »
How do we know he wasn't one or the other? He was very steeped in Dark Magic corruption at the least, which is insanity inducing. Mayhaps how he appeared in the recent short story is indicative he was once more of a man then Monster?

Like Harry, Kemmler was a man that made choices. Unlike Harry, Kemmler let his good intentions slip away.

Well, my starting and ending point is the current information.


Nicodemus obviously believes that he's doing the right thing and is trying to build up power to save the world in the end. And he's somehow trying to battle Outsiders.
Ariana was conned by the Red King and is acting because of injured pride and out of revenge.
Mab is only doing her duty to protect the world from Outsiders.
The Red King is simply tending to his "herd". For him it's basically growing his food source and keeping his power / growing it.
Lord Raith is fairly similar to the Red King in this aspect.Alicia Nelson
Lara Raith dtto, only being sexier because female and a lot more seductive :)
Cowl is quite possibly working with Outsiders. Either got conned or believes to use the power of Outsiders to fight outsiders.
Corpsetaker wants power and is insane. It may be the conclusion of her jumping bodies and her psyche breaking part by part as she encounters various minds [ Luccio is also sometimes dreaming memories of Alicia Nelson ]
Maeve has mommy issues and is driven insane by the crazy libido she can't satisfy. Nemfection didn't help with that. Again, not evil, just a bit insane and a bit mind-controlled. I'm guessing it's similar to Aurora's problem
Mavra is simply one of the surviving Black Court members. As a vampire, she feeds on humans. It's her nature. We don't hate piranhas for killing people and animals because they want to feed. Although I most certainly wouldn't want them in an aquarium at home. Or my bathtub for that matter.
Polonius Lartessa is a bratty nasty girl who didn't manage to grow up in almost 2 millenia. But in the long-term she's probably working with Nicodemus.
Peabody is/was just a power-hungry small-minded thug.
Marcone is simply a businessman who decided, that controlling the mob is the best way to limit the bad things that happen. As was noted in the books, by someone, I think it was Nicodemus, he'd be a good king. Not a kind king, but a good one.
Shagnasty is a Navaho variant of a fallen angel. Kinda pitiful.
Evil Bob is created from twisted parts of Bob. And Bob kinda has a problem distinguishing between good and evil. So I expect "Evil" Bob to have the same issue.
Dracul... well... as someone who kinda read about Vlad II and Vlad III, they have been attributed many nasty things, but what they did was to protect their land from extremely hostile invaders. Again, not evil. Just doing what is necessary.

So there from me :)
... hear me roar ;)

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
« Reply #134 on: December 14, 2017, 08:54:07 PM »
Bianca actually. Everything about her. Pretty sure Uppity Red Nobles seeking to ascend and intercourt Sorcerous activities were specifically on multiple lists.

How is that not adequately explained by a) her wanting revenge on Harry and b) Mavra manipulating her, including specifically teaching her how to use dark magic?

Quote
There by ignoring all connections between Outsiders, Walkers and Nemesis. That Nemesis's presence in CD was manifested by a Walker and a bunch of minor outsiders trying to break open the Max security Prison.

I'm not ignoring that; I am not claiming that Nemesis is not a tool of the Outsiders and used by them.

I am saying that suddenly blaming Nemesis for most of everything that has gone wrong in the whole series is not supported.

Quote
and actually, if you look at how the Fae pay lip service to the Balance/rent by not violating Hope, Love or Faith, I can directly connect here what you call N to something not directly Nemesis itself.  Hope is balance with Fear, Fae service is Duty,(which I can totally find a complex paper someone else wrote on why Duty is a warriors form of Hope, but I lack the ability to sufficiently explain to my own satisfaction) Faith is keeping their word and Love is respecting Homestead laws(which love is the primary force of empowerment in a familial nature)

I'm not familiar with what you are referring to here; if this a bit of speculation/analysis from the past couple of years I may well have missed it.

Quote
What's been satisfactorily explained?

Every major plot point prior to CD has a solid plausible explanation in the text except for Aurora going loopy.

Many of them have multiple solid plausible explanations in the text.

Quote
But your insisting the opposite it feels like, that anything not Nemesis is not related to Nemesis..

I am not saying that.

I am saying anything not Nemesis is not proven to be related to Nemesis.  There is a big difference.
Quote
Nemesis infects Fairie specifically and easily because that's where they got their power, that's why Mab has an aspect of Judgement. From the Literal Greek Goddess Nemesis, and the Scales, those are HER scales. they fed her to the stone table and split the power and the image so that their would be no mirror not already balanced inside reality. So she'd have no foothold.

Again, where is this coming from?  It makes sense, but I am not recalling textev for it unless I have missed a lot in a recent short story.

Quote
Mayhaps the Yeats second coming,which is ALL about the coming apocalypse and is specifically mentioned by Murphy whenever things are getting wonky, also quoted by Maeve about being the 'falcon'. Nemesis is the destabilizing factor and then he quotes something that's been reference all over regarding that same destabilization...

Yep, because that poem is one of the most frequently quoted in any end of the world novel anywhere; George RR Martin uses it a lot in The Armageddon rag for example.

Quote
Leaving out the Arctis Tor events... very selective reasoning on that.

We have no evidence linking Namshiel to Nemesis at Arctis Tor.

Here is a plausible alternative explanation: 

Arctis Tor is normally guarded by tons of trolls and goblins.  Harry and Thomas can't plausibly break through that big a force by themselves.

Mab can't ask Harry to break in and rescue Molly directly without using up a favour, which she doesn't want to do.

Mab can't just order the trolls away because that will be suspicious as heck.

Therefore, Mab hires a Denarian to attack the trolls and goblins and open the way for Harry. (we have a WoJ that Mab would sacrifice her entire court in an instant if there was gain to be had).

Namshiel, or possibly Nicodemus, was there working for Mab.  This is why Mab owed Nicodemus a favour in SG.

Note also; Harry's first conversation with Mab in SmF involves her hiding something from his mind (the blasting wand), and distracting him from noticing with a brutal headache.  When he mentions Namshiel at the end of SmF, she slaps him down again, and he never mentions Namshiel again.   Not even when hanging out with Denarians.

Does this make sense to you?

Quote
Multiple places, of course if we take everything said as wrong, then we have no idea what going on and neither you a leg to stand on as I can point this out too for literally everything, as everything is from Harry's perspective. So saying multiple sources are inherently lying or wrong becomes and endless cycle.

Not at all, because saying "everyone could be wrong" is not saying we haven't a leg to stand on.  We can assess who might be wrong or lying based on what we know about them.  Fallen lie all the time.  Faerie tell the literal truth in a misleading way.  Michael Carpenter's value of being a good man includes respect for the truth, but he has also said if anything good happens and he does not know where it comes from he credits the White God, which means that if he got a random gift from Odin and did what he said he does he would be wrong about its origin.

Quote
Quite frankly as Mr. GK is the resident(as in resident of fricken reality) expert on said things I wouldn't see why we should simply dismiss him either.

I am not dismissing him.  I would point out the inherent difficulties of confirming any evidence about Nemesis when part of your working model is "never mention it to anyone", though.

Quote
We have Odins comment about Harry not yet seeing who the real players are too, but that won't count I suppose...

Oh, I entirely count that.  It's part of why I believe the real players are still to come, and Nemesis is as much of a red herring for One-Explanation-For-Everything as the "Black Council" was.

Quote
and just so I feel like i'm not the only one getting holes poked into them, for what purpose did the Red court thereby empower the Shadowman to do what he did in SF? Seems you like to have all your ducks in a row, what you got there?

I see several purposes there, depending on how well informed the enemies are.  Challenge Harry; challenge Marcone; expose Harry to an option that nearly turns him to the dark side (just outside the Sells' house, before he hears the mysterious female voice, he is very near using the drug against the wardens); set Harry up to be executed; set Harry up to have the Doom lifted so that he'll be harder for the Council to disavow come GP and subsequent books when he is being set up as cause of the war.

Quote
Cause fyi, it's also surmised Raith and his books of Magic were involved, what with the Name of Shadowmans old company having the word Silver in it and Lust being the most effective spellframe... funny that, a Red used spell is best used with Whites Lust power..

Funny that people regard that connection as significant when Odin tells Harry directly in Changes that the spell the Reds were using at CI was the one the Shadowman tested out; I take the direct evidence over the similarity there.  Particularly as we know from "love Hurts" that the Reds are specifically doing research into understanding the White Lust power.
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.