Author Topic: Another clue from Nicodemus in Small Favor  (Read 929 times)

Offline Snark Knight

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Another clue from Nicodemus in Small Favor
« on: October 21, 2017, 07:32:23 PM »
So I was recently re-reading SmF, and something new struck me from Harry's final conversation with Nicodemus on the boat. Nic says it's ironic that Harry, despite being an opponent, is the only one he can be sure hasn't gone over to the "Black Council", as Harry is still calling it at the time. And when Harry asks why, he says because "Nobody so obstreporous has ever been corrupted except by his own mule-headedness".

Now, despite not filling Harry in on the details, Nic has pretty clearly recognized that what Harry is calling the Black Council actually means he's started connecting the movements of Nemesis' infected and their pawns. There are two possible interpretations - either he's being honest about his confidence that Harry hasn't been infected against his will, or he has nothing to fear from tipping his hand to knowing more than Harry does about this faction even if Harry had been forcibly Nemfected (which the Mothers later told Harry amounts to painting a target on yourself to be killed or forcibly turned), meaning the Adversary already knows he's an active opponent and he has nothing to lose talking to Harry about it even if Harry is Nemfected.

I think at minimum, this is the hard proof that Nic is sincerely opposed to Nemesis. Even if he was for some reason lying earlier on about being disturbed that Harry vouched for someone with Hellfire being in on the Adversary's attack on Arctis Tor, the later comments only make sense if he's genuinely set against Nemesis.

But it's his confidence that Harry hasn't been forcibly turned that's perhaps even more interesting. It can't really be because he considers Harry too stubborn to corrupt, because according to his plans, Lasciel's shadow is supposed to be slowly working on doing exactly that. So that reason has to be a deflection. Unless he just figures he has nothing to lose talking relatively freely to Harry even if he is Nemfected, what does he know that makes him so confident? Are Starborn immune and he knows Harry is one? Are humans in general immune, or immune unless they collaborate willingly?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2017, 07:36:14 PM by Snark Knight »

Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Another clue from Nicodemus in Small Favor
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2017, 09:41:46 PM »
I think he is stating that the habits and methods of movement of Nemesis/Black Council is the complete opposite of Harry's habits and methods. Where the former works in shadows and goes for the long con; the latter is upfront, blunt, and immediate in what he does. Harry is usually the least subtle of wizards.
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Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Another clue from Nicodemus in Small Favor
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2017, 10:29:54 PM »
I think he is stating that the habits and methods of movement of Nemesis/Black Council is the complete opposite of Harry's habits and methods.

An educated guess might be part of it, yeah.

Interesting, though, that Nic is apparently totally confident in his read on Harry, while Rashid was actively suspicious in the other direction until at least a book later.

Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Another clue from Nicodemus in Small Favor
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2017, 10:34:55 PM »
I think it is a matter of experience. Nico has spent thousands of years reading people; Rashid has spent a large part of his life reading Fae. Reading Harry is like reading a mystery; reading Fae is like interpreting poetry.
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Offline Ananda

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Re: Another clue from Nicodemus in Small Favor
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2017, 02:50:16 AM »
An educated guess might be part of it, yeah.

Interesting, though, that Nic is apparently totally confident in his read on Harry, while Rashid was actively suspicious in the other direction until at least a book later.
I think Nic knows Dresden better than Rashid.

To your question regarding his sincerity, I think he genuinely aims to save the universe (after his own fashion). Also, this seemed to already been known by the adversary given the apparent infiltration of his circle.

Whether his reaction to Dresden at the fish house was real or a show to distract and gauge Dresdenís reaction (perhaps to determine if Dresden was an ageNt), Iím uncertain. Did they even intend to kill Dresden, either at the fish house during the abduction or later on the island? They seemed to give it a good effort, though, again, Iím unclear if Nic willed it or not. However, they also, apparently, laboured under the misapprehension that Dresden was, at some level, one of them.

So, I think Nicís admission to Dresden was neither daring nor dangerous. Nic was already targeted, therefore, speaking openly to Dresden was no risk as he either was an agent of N taunting Nic to his face or not. Whichever it was didnít matter as Nic was already exposed.

Offline Con

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Re: Another clue from Nicodemus in Small Favor
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2017, 11:28:35 AM »
He could be talking quite literally or at least as literally as a Fallen Angel can. I'm reminded of Harry's conversation with Lash.

Quote from: Proven Guilty Chapter 15
"I mean no insult by it, but you should know that your abiolity to comprehend your environment is very strongly defined by your belief in a number of illusions. Time. Truth. Love. That kind of thing. It isn't your fault, of course-but it does impose limits upon your ability to percieve and understand some matters"
"I'm only human," I said. "So enlighten me."
"To do so, you would have to release your hold on mortality."
I blinked and said, "I'd have to die?"
"Again you have only a partial understanding. But in the interest of expediency yes. You would have cease living."

Harry has died and has learnt a lot about Time and Truth since doing so, but alas that's a different topic and conversation, one which as some people have noted has been Beaten like a Dead Horse.

I think Nicodemus is being as literal as he can be. Harry is exhibiting too much emotion, too much self awareness, too much independent thought regardless of outside influence to be Nemfected. Basically he's being too much like himself and too human. If he was corrupted, he wouldn't be so much like himself he'd be playing word games and subterfuge who as others have pointed out in this conversation is brash and upfront.

So like Lash, Nicodemus is giving him a reverse complement and left handed insult y saying that Harry is still too human to have been influenced.

I wonder if his having dying and being exposed to those subjects since also makes him more vulnerable to Nemfected just like he's vulnerable too his Mantles. (Everything relates back to Mantles)

Offline Rasins

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Re: Another clue from Nicodemus in Small Favor
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2017, 06:33:22 PM »
This also makes one wonder .... is nemfection of the mind, body, or soul.

If a nemfected dies, and is brought back, are they still nemfected?
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Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Another clue from Nicodemus in Small Favor
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2017, 10:39:48 PM »
My best guess is that it is a contagious form of mental magic.
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