Author Topic: DuMorne and favors owed  (Read 1701 times)

Offline SpoonR

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DuMorne and favors owed
« on: October 16, 2017, 05:20:45 PM »
I'm away from book. Does Ghost Story have the exact wording of Harry's bargain with Leah? Cause WAG.

Assume the bargain was Leah will help Harry defeat or kill DuMorne, in exchange for three favors. Mab has collected either one or two I think?  Now, with the DuMorne/Kemler connection Dumorne can be "dead dead" and still come back. So, DuMorne shows himself and Harry recognizes him. What happens to the bargain? The first clause is now untrue, so Harry has done favors without compensation, which leaves a pretty potent unbalance.

I'm assuming IIRC the bit from Cold Days that went something like: Harry is fine. Harry says he will break part of the Winter Knight Oath. The Knightly power disappears until he changes his mind. So the Leah/Harry oath will be "balanced" until Harry, Mab, or Leah find out DuMorne is still around. Now in the Leah/Harry oath, one favor has been equivalent to Harry using all his power to do whatever. I'm thinking this means...

Harry and the Alphas have tied up the villain. Harry reaches out and pulls off the mask...
"The ghoul! It's mister DuMorne"
"And I would have gotten away with it too if it hadn't been for you mangy wolves and that wizard."
Elsewhere, Mab is in the middle of a fight. Suddenly, two Harry's worth of power are drained from her and passed to Harry.
Mab has no power left and loses the fight. Oops. Nice job breaking it hero.


Offline Kindler

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Re: DuMorne and favors owed
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2017, 06:18:03 PM »
Let me see if I understand correctly. You're saying that:

1. Lea's deal with Harry was contingent upon Justin's death (permanent death).
2. Lea selling Harry's debt to Mab gives Mab power in a real, magical-oomph-type way.
3. If Harry sees that Justin is alive, that negates the deal, and Mab suddenly loses the power she had.

If I understand this correctly, I think there might be something there. I'm not sure that obligation is a direct power boost for the Fae, so I don't think it would necessarily shake out precisely that way, but it might cause problems for her if Justin comes back.

I believe, though, that Lea's deal with Harry was specifically for the power to beat Justin, not "Justin will die." Ghost Story does not give the specific wording, though, so I could be wrong. Even if that was the case, Fae Rules-Lawyering would say that Justin's heart stopped, which killed him, and any event that brought him back is not their concern.

But if there is sufficient wiggle room in the original contract, I do believe that Harry could use that to negotiate with Mab—perhaps to negate his remaining favor while letting Harry leave the Winter Knight's mantle behind. (Though I don't think he needs to; just figure out how to drop it and wait till Halloween to pull it off).

I do want Justin to come back, if only to provide some insight into Harry's past. Maybe in Mirror, Mirror, if Cowl pulled off the Darkhallow, Justin forced his way back across the Veil in the necromantic turbulence. Who knows?

Offline exartiem

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Re: DuMorne and favors owed
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2017, 08:20:03 PM »
I believe that DuMorne is not coming back.  There's a WOJ that pretty much says that.  That's not to say that we won't be seeing him.  There is a time travel book coming up.  I think Harry goes back and actually helps his younger self, possibly to the point of killing Justin himself.

Offline Talby16

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Re: DuMorne and favors owed
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2017, 08:36:04 PM »
I believe that the deal was contingent on power enough to beat Justin, not on his death. I would love to see Jim do another Ask me Anything Reddit so some longer form questions can be asked instead of the quick Q&A sessions at book signings. The nature of favors and power with regards to the Fae deserves a longer response.

Offline Mira

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Re: DuMorne and favors owed
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2017, 11:28:43 AM »
I believe that the deal was contingent on power enough to beat Justin, not on his death. I would love to see Jim do another Ask me Anything Reddit so some longer form questions can be asked instead of the quick Q&A sessions at book signings. The nature of favors and power with regards to the Fae deserves a longer response.

Hasn't Jim also said that Lea didn't really give Harry anything in the bargain but a boost of confidence that he could kill Justin in a fight?  So it was a pretty dumb bargain on the part of a inexperienced sixteen year old.

Offline Talby16

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Re: DuMorne and favors owed
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2017, 12:39:45 PM »
Hasn't Jim also said that Lea didn't really give Harry anything in the bargain but a boost of confidence that he could kill Justin in a fight?  So it was a pretty dumb bargain on the part of a inexperienced sixteen year old.

You are correct. Here is the relevant WOJ I found:

 Should Harry’s first deal with Lea been covered by Maggie’s deal?
A:  Not really.  One problem is that Harry dealt with Lea the way that one would deal with another human, so he really didn’t get much out of the bargain besides some confidence.  Lea gave him the “magic feather” so to speak.
And, Maggie could have done a little better job on her deal with Lea, but she was kind of in a rush, so she wasn’t as detailed as she should have been.

Offline wardenferry419

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Re: DuMorne and favors owed
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2017, 03:19:06 PM »
Lea's magic feather seemed more like a reality smack.
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Offline peregrine

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Re: DuMorne and favors owed
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2017, 03:35:01 PM »
I'm pretty sure the favors thing was for Harry to get out from under his obligation to Mab, as acquired from Lea.  Not part of his original deal with Lea. But that's not terribly relevant.

However, knowledge is power.  Confidence could also be power, the psychological edge that lets you know you can do something.  So even if she didn't give Harry anything quantitative to help him (and also, technically "not much" is different from "nothing") she still gave him what he needed.

And finally, even if he did ask for the power to kill Justin, if Justin survived that isn't necessarily a problem for Lea.  If I ask for the power to kill my enemies, and someone gives me a pistol, and I miss every single one of my shots and they survive, that's on me.  I had the power, I just failed to use it properly.

Offline Mira

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Re: DuMorne and favors owed
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2017, 05:31:49 PM »
You are correct. Here is the relevant WOJ I found:

 Should Harry’s first deal with Lea been covered by Maggie’s deal?
A:  Not really.  One problem is that Harry dealt with Lea the way that one would deal with another human, so he really didn’t get much out of the bargain besides some confidence.  Lea gave him the “magic feather” so to speak.
And, Maggie could have done a little better job on her deal with Lea, but she was kind of in a rush, so she wasn’t as detailed as she should have been.

I am thinking that Harry has been played by the Winter Court since his conception.  Margaret saw the need for a star child and agreed to conceive on in return for his protection by the Winter Court, hence Harry has a real fairy godmother in the form of Lea..  The Winter Court gets not only a star child but an eventual winter knight..  I think Harry's fate has always been more or less directed by others, but not so much to over ride his free will, he still has choices.   Yeah, Jim compared Harry to Dumbo, as you will remember Dumbo could always fly, but he didn't believe it.  Young Harry didn't believe he could beat Justin though he had the power all of the time..  Lea's mumbo jumbo gave him the confidence..  However I don't think the bargain he made with her was very binding, the real contract was made between Margaret and Mab long before he was born, he just doesn't fully realize that yet.

Offline Cozarkian

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Re: DuMorne and favors owed
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2017, 07:03:53 PM »
I agree with the thoughts that the deal probably wasn't for Justin's actual and permanent death.

Further, that isn't how Mab dies. Something happens that allows Nemesis to infect Mab. Knowing she will eventually lose the fight with Nemesis, she calls in the last favor Harry owes - kill her. Harry does, which per the deal with Mab frees him from all obligation to Winter, including his obligation as WK, stripping him of the mantle and setting off the BAT.

Offline wardenferry419

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Re: DuMorne and favors owed
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2017, 08:10:59 PM »
Are you sure he is beholden only to Mab; because I would suggest he is beholden to all Winter Queens.
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Offline Cozarkian

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Re: DuMorne and favors owed
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2017, 09:42:11 PM »
Are you sure he is beholden only to Mab; because I would suggest he is beholden to all Winter Queens.

Doesn't matter - I believe the original deal with Mab was to get rid of all debts to Winter. His service as WK is a debt to Winter, so completing the original deal (3 favors) will free him free from that debt.

Even if it was only a debts to Mab, his agreement to serve as WK was a deal with Mab. He might owe service to all Queens while he is WK, but he only owes Mab to be WK.


Offline peregrine

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Re: DuMorne and favors owed
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2017, 01:03:20 AM »
Are you sure he is beholden only to Mab; because I would suggest he is beholden to all Winter Queens.
His debt by way of Lea is to Mab.  His fealty by way of Winter Knighthood is to all Queens.

Offline Cozarkian

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Re: DuMorne and favors owed
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2017, 02:43:43 PM »
His debt by way of Lea is to Mab.  His fealty by way of Winter Knighthood is to all Queens.

A forum moderator has a duty to all forum users to be fair and impartial, but the obligation to remain a moderator is only to the site owner that hired him/her.

Similarly, as WK Harry owes fealty to all of Winter, but his obligation to remain WK is only to Mab based on the Changes deal. The SK deal with Mab is three tasks in exchange for all debt to Mab ceasing. That means if Harry completes a third favor, his obligation to remain as WK ends.

Offline kbrizzle

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Re: DuMorne and favors owed
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2017, 03:58:52 PM »
@ Cozrkian

That’s the way I hope it plays out, but have doubts it would be so neat.

I agree with the other posters in general who consider Lea’s part of the bargain to Harry about Justin’s death being fulfilled - WoJ is that Justin is D-E-D dead, which i think is good enough for the purposes of Sidhe lawyering.

On Harry’s side, I thought a new bargain was made by Mab in Summer Knight - she wanted new terms on Harry’s debt that she ‘bought’ from Lea. The new terms of the debt were that 3 favors owed by Harry to Mab personally OR Harry becomes the WK at any point & consider all extant debts repaid? As far as Harry can tell, WK is a permanent thing (I think he’s wrong), otherwise why would he assassinate himself through Kincaid at the end of Changes?

I mean he’d already completed 2 out of the 3 favors - why wouldn’t Harry just complete the 3rd favor & be done with Mab? Each favor (solve Reuel’s murder in SK & find Marcone in SmF) has ultimately been a blow to the Outsiders/ Black Council, so the 3rd favor (which would have been to kill Maeve) would also follow the same pattern.... These are all things Harry would have done regardless of favors owed to Mab if she just explained what was really going on.