Author Topic: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic  (Read 14523 times)

Offline namkcas

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1650
    • View Profile
Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
« on: October 14, 2017, 07:24:16 PM »

PG is considered a book that is very thick with unanswered questions.  This theory makes it actually a quite simple book.  A book where the main points are actually called out directly...mostly by Harry.  The problem is that it only makes sense post-Cold Days.

The main questions are:

- Who sent the Fetches?
- Why did the Black Council (maybe we should call it The Circle per WN) attack Arctus Tor?
- Who fixed Little Chicago?
- Who hit Harry's car?

The answer lies in the future roles planned for Molly Carpenter. Mab's desire to have her and Harry positioned for future work is the driving force of the story.

Remember this is all kicked off by a letter from the Gatekeeper.  We now know that he hangs with a lot of folks from Winter and is working with Mab to defend the Outer Gates. His message was about Black Magic in Chicago.  Harry gets this message right after the execution of a Warlock.

Molly, at this point, is a Warlock and clearly on a downward slope.  Charity admits that she had problems and future events (particularly TC, Changes, and GS) show that Molly is touched by darkness.  Imagine that Harry does not act.  I would consider it likely that Molly would be full Warlock and be executed.  The primary outcome of PG is that Molly is saved from immediate Warlockdom and is Harry's apprentice.

Molly has come to the attention of the Black Council somehow.  That is why they are in the picture here.  The entire scenario would be set up for Glau to monitor Molly's progress to evil.  I agree with Harry that Glau was a cutout and that leads to the answer to the next two questions.

Mab sent the fetches to kidnap Molly to keep her away from the Black Council.  They were upset enough about this that they attacked Arctus Tor.  Mab fights them off but keeps things open for Harry to rescue the girl.  She wants Molly bound to Harry and wants her in place.  She needs to judge Harry's capability.  So she sets up a difficult but not impossible rescue scenario (I have no use for weakness.).

That means it is Mab that fixes Little Chicago.  She does so because she wants Harry to succeed in his rescue.  This is similar to the help she gave him by calling Thomas in CD.  I want to point out that this plot is similar to (in some ways) the Archive in SmF.  Mab tried to kidnap the Archive so that the Denarians could not (and failed).  In the PG case put Molly in instead of the Archive.  She does not make these things easy for Harry (remember the line about preparing Harry to become Winter Knight). 

The other thing that gets accomplished in PG is that Mab shows Nemesis to Harry.  He does not recognize it but it is called a sickness and several nFected sidhe are part of the story.  If Mab is listening in to the conversation at Mac's with Maeve, then she would know that Maeve in nFected right then.

Finally, Ace likely is the one that hits Harry's car.  He is likely the bomber of Murphy's car in WN.


TL:DR  PG is all about getting Molly to be Harry's apprentice.  Mab has a difficult rescue set up for Harry to test/prepare him.

Offline raidem

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5634
  • Duck's Apprentice
    • View Profile
Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2017, 07:49:31 PM »
Well, I think everyone already knows my theory that there is a strong link between Murphy and Mab, going so far as equating the two in some past,present,future, alternate reality. So here it goes.
First off, I think Harry's accident was to get Murphy involved in assisting Harry in the search for black magic, aka Molly's black magic.
Second, it was Murphy that tipped Harry off to use Charity's blood to divine the whereabouts of Molly.

To be continuted with supporting text and further arguments.
(click to show/hide)
So, whoever hit Harry's car, whether with goodwill or ill intent, it had the consequence of Murphy getting involved.  Murphy's involvement directly led to Harry successfully finding the opening to Deep Faerie to rescue her.  And, Murphy's entrance and assistance followed directly after Charity and company sought Heavenly assistance in the matter.  As to Mab, she would be fully aware of a method of how Harry would search for Molly, so I doubt she was surprised and anticipated it.
So, I agree that Mab could definitely have been the one to have fixed Little Chicago.  Subsequent text in later books confirm that possibility since Fae with benevolent intent can have greater freedom of action within a threshold which Mab wouldn't have had much of a problem with anyway.

(click to show/hide)
Bringing in Molly, preserves a successor for either Winter and Molly.  It also bring Murphy to Arctis Tor.  If somehow Proven Guilty was an attempt by the bad guys to get rid of Murphy prior to her ascension as Mab, then Mab short circuited that gambit by bringing Murphy, her prior self, to the safety of Arctis Tor.  Or, if Murphy is a vessel of some kind, she is a backup.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 03:00:20 PM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline jonas

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1258
  • Surpassed Ms. Duck
    • View Profile
Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2017, 09:50:38 PM »
Ahh.. you jogged something else on Murphy, the original time ID interefered he directly told Harry he should trust Murph, this action changed their whole dynamic throughout the stories. Looking backwards through the sieve of generational theory, MM Murphy is probably a Denarian enemy of Dresden's. Between the dream involving her as a denarian(which most dreams he get's filter things in from alt realities) and looking at the odd possibility she would basically be Nic's wife in his variation. The whole love/hate thing would work well there.
Quote from: A. Lanning
I'm sorry, My responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
Quote from: C Chaplin
...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.

Offline Cozarkian

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1981
    • View Profile
Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2017, 02:22:18 PM »
Another WAG I've had that supports the Mab connection.

Harry was saved from using LC by a timely phone call from Molly. Assuming someone knew Harry was about to use it and wanted to save him, the easiest method would be to have a chat with Molly at the police station to help her realize she already knows someone who can help - Harry.

We've seen Mab use false personas. I think she appeared to Molly off-screen masquerading as a friendly ear and prompted the call to Harry. It makes more sense than Molly fortuitously calling at that exact moment.

Offline raidem

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5634
  • Duck's Apprentice
    • View Profile
Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2017, 02:54:18 PM »
My original thoughts on that was a TTMolly was in the midst.  And, that Mouse wasn't just picking up on black magic Molly but on something bad at the police station when Harry went to pick her up.
We have seen Mab impersonate Molly in phone calls before.
I'm stretching things, but the phone call was fortuitous.
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline Kindler

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1139
    • View Profile
Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2017, 03:13:56 PM »
Another WAG I've had that supports the Mab connection.

Harry was saved from using LC by a timely phone call from Molly. Assuming someone knew Harry was about to use it and wanted to save him, the easiest method would be to have a chat with Molly at the police station to help her realize she already knows someone who can help - Harry.

We've seen Mab use false personas. I think she appeared to Molly off-screen masquerading as a friendly ear and prompted the call to Harry. It makes more sense than Molly fortuitously calling at that exact moment.

Holy crap, I never even thought about that at all.

Why did Mouse growl then but not later? It wasn't Nelson's presence, because Mouse was fine in the hospital with the girl, and Molly had done the same thing to both of them.


Offline raidem

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5634
  • Duck's Apprentice
    • View Profile
Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2017, 03:27:33 PM »
Quote
Why did Mouse growl then but not later?
This is my understanding of Mouse growling.
First, Harry assumed Mouse was growling at the car parked behind in police parking lot. It turned out to be Thomas. Or, was there something near the police entrance that Mouse was picking up on and Harry incorrectly blamed it on the the person following him.
Second, We assume Mouse was picking up on black magic on Molly


Quote
Molly smiled at the dog and reached down to pet him.
Mouse tensed up, and a low rumbling came from his chest. Molly moved her hand toward him again, and my dog’s chest suddenly rumbled with a deep and warning growl.
The last time Mouse had growled at anything—for that matter, made much noise at all—it had been a crazed sorcerer who made fair headway toward eviscerating me, and summoned a twenty-foot-long demon cobra to kill my dog. Mouse killed it instead. Then, at my command, Mouse killed the sorcerer, too.
And now he was growling at Molly.
“Be polite,” I told him firmly. “She’s a friend.”
Mouse gave me a look and then fell quiet again. He sat calmly as Molly let him sniff her hand and scratch at his ears, but his wary body language didn’t change.
Quote
Molly got it. Her face went white and she whispered, “Oh, God. She’ll be so…” She folded her arms and shook her head several times. Then she said,
“I’ve got to…” She looked around, and in a louder voice said, “I’m dying for coffee. Anyone else need some?”
Nobody did. Molly picked up her purse and turned around to walk for the door. In doing so, she brushed within a foot or two of Mouse. Instead of growling, though, Mouse leaned his head affectionately against her leg as she went by, and cadged a few ear scratches from the girl before she left.
I frowned at Mouse after Molly had gone. “Are you going bipolar on me?”
He settled down again immediately. Murphy went on asking Rosie fairly predictable questions about the attack.

Edit: Some pointed out it seems sort of irrelevant or at least insignificant from a doylist perspective to go back to Harry visiting Molly at Police hq.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 03:01:54 PM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline Talby16

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 402
    • View Profile
Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2017, 03:36:58 PM »
I like this Proven Guilty theory. Neatly ties up some of the loose ends. I confess, it never occurred to me that Mab was intentionally kidnapping Molly to keep her away from the Black Council. If I am understanding your theory correctly, the fetches were sent by Mab the whole time using Molly's behavior changing action as the link. The eldest fetch was sent to take care of Glau and protect/test/train Harry.

Offline Kindler

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1139
    • View Profile
Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2017, 04:17:43 PM »
This is my understanding of Mouse growling.
First, Harry assumed Mouse was growling at the car parked behind in police parking lot. It turned out to be Thomas. So, was there something in the police HQ that Mouse was growling at.
Second, We assume Mouse was picking up on black magic on Molly

Sure, but it doesn't make sense that Mouse would pick up on it at the police station but not be similarly distressed later. The Gatekeeper's note specifies that it's been "repeated acts of black magic over the last ten days," and we know Nelson was hit first. It's not like she had just done some black magic, you know? Rosie's was fresher, so he should be more on edge.

Unless he took Harry's "She's a friend" to heart, and just gave it a pass.

Offline raidem

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5634
  • Duck's Apprentice
    • View Profile
Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2017, 04:29:02 PM »
Yeah, It was why I had wondered if it was a TTMolly that Mouse had met on one occasion and the real Molly on the other.  But, that kinda gets a bit TT screwy.

Less TT screwy would be say Goodman Grey, or someone like him, impersonated Molly in first interaction.
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline Kindler

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1139
    • View Profile
Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2017, 06:20:29 PM »
Yeah, It was why I had wondered if it was a TTMolly that Mouse had met on one occasion and the real Molly on the other.  But, that kinda gets a bit TT screwy.

Less TT screwy would be say Goodman Grey, or someone like him, impersonated Molly in first interaction.

It doesn't quite jibe, though; Molly doesn't express any surprise at seeing him later, and takes him to the convention. They even talk about Nelson's bail later in the book.

Offline wardenferry419

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 5265
  • Can I get a Hells Bells !!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2017, 08:37:53 PM »
Sure, but it doesn't make sense that Mouse would pick up on it at the police station but not be similarly distressed later. The Gatekeeper's note specifies that it's been "repeated acts of black magic over the last ten days," and we know Nelson was hit first. It's not like she had just done some black magic, you know? Rosie's was fresher, so he should be more on edge.

Unless he took Harry's "She's a friend" to heart, and just gave it a pass.
This is very possible. Does anyone recall a passing mention of a "Joe Nobody" type character walking by or hanging out?
Make Mine Butcher!
Who do I have to turn to ice to get a whiskey on the rocks?

Offline jonas

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1258
  • Surpassed Ms. Duck
    • View Profile
Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2017, 09:47:04 PM »
Holy crap, I never even thought about that at all.

Why did Mouse growl then but not later? It wasn't Nelson's presence, because Mouse was fine in the hospital with the girl, and Molly had done the same thing to both of them.
My assumption was He could See Nemesis inside her, THAT'S what wanted Harry involved in it. (if you look at the mirror mechanism used by the fetches for become, and apply that to the soul as a mirror...)
The whole thing Getting Molly involved in Black Magic an all that was a ploy to get Harry in trouble/outted/doing things that violate rules and Laws. Same way they set him up to violate homestead laws in GP. Consider If Harry hadn't rose to the occasion  with TWG's help? fallen to the wayside on the run and 'warlocked' technically.
Also... that's likely why Mouse is there, first to protect Harry, especially in his dreams, and now Maggie from Nfluence/control. Right before Harry got Mouse he had the creepy dream with the evil Lea talking to him...
Quote from: A. Lanning
I'm sorry, My responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
Quote from: C Chaplin
...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.

Offline peregrine

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 8736
    • View Profile
Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2017, 04:46:18 AM »
Sure, but it doesn't make sense that Mouse would pick up on it at the police station but not be similarly distressed later. The Gatekeeper's note specifies that it's been "repeated acts of black magic over the last ten days," and we know Nelson was hit first. It's not like she had just done some black magic, you know? Rosie's was fresher, so he should be more on edge.

Unless he took Harry's "She's a friend" to heart, and just gave it a pass.
Let's face it, Mouse isn't going to just hate on someone forever just because they've got that touch of black magic on them.  After all, Harry.,

Offline namkcas

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1650
    • View Profile
Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2017, 05:55:14 AM »
Thank at least 1 person for discussing my theory.  I went from the WoJ (I think it was) that we could discover the point of PG by looking at what came out of it.  Most everyone noted the BC attack, but the main plot of the book was patently ignored.  So, I said...suppose the main plot of the book was actually the main plot of the book.

However, I think the Mouse thing is trivial to explain.  Molly had recently done Black Magic.  Mouse reacts to evil actions not to potential evil (otherwise he would have had problems with Thomas).  As Molly got more distant from this and potentially changed direction, Mouse changes his views and likes her.

NOTE:  The only reason I type this is that Sandra Marling meets Mouse twice during the book and he has no noted reaction to her.  That (to me) pretty much seals it that she is not a player in the game.

I would greatly prefer if you want to have a thread about another theory...that you make another thread.  Thanks!