WAG: Id Harry's Bargain with Mab.

[Froklsnt]

Two things.

First, I think it was Mab that manipulated Harry's memories.  She's got the ability to run roughshod over him.

Second, I think even if Id had been the one to actually conceal the memories, Mab could still say that she took them from Harry, as long as Id was acting in her name.  It's like how Harry was responsible for Aurora's death, even though she was killed by dew drop faeries.

I agree with you that someone acting on Mab's behalf is the same as saying Mab did it. It's just how she did it.

The reason for suggesting that Id Harry was responsible for the memory manipulation is that it explains what was going on with Little Chicago and Mouse in TC without Mab having to meddle with Harry again directly. I find it compelling to match the blasting rod under a tarp in his mind in SmF with the tarp described as over the table with LC in TC. But he remembers LC in the Side Jobs stories between SmF and TC, so Mab couldn't have done it in SmF. If LC has been cloaked from his memory by the time of TC, then either Mab found a way to hide it which left no trace at all of her presence in Harry's memory, or someone who was already in his head did it. The second option seems simpler, and has the bonus of matching up better with Bonnie headache used to distract Harry from Mouse in the same timeframe.

The concept still holds up if you say Mab was directly responsible for hiding the blasting rod, and then Id Harry, copying her technique, is responsible for hiding LC. It just seems like added complication.

[Griffyn612]

I agree with you that someone acting on Mab's behalf is the same as saying Mab did it. It's just how she did it.

The reason for suggesting that Id Harry was responsible for the memory manipulation is that it explains what was going on with Little Chicago and Mouse in TC without Mab having to meddle with Harry again directly. I find it compelling to match the blasting rod under a tarp in his mind in SmF with the tarp described as over the table with LC in TC. But he remembers LC in the Side Jobs stories between SmF and TC, so Mab couldn't have done it in SmF. If LC has been cloaked from his memory by the time of TC, then either Mab found a way to hide it which left no trace at all of her presence in Harry's memory, or someone who was already in his head did it. The second option seems simpler, and has the bonus of matching up better with Bonnie headache used to distract Harry from Mouse in the same timeframe.

The concept still holds up if you say Mab was directly responsible for hiding the blasting rod, and then Id Harry, copying her technique, is responsible for hiding LC. It just seems like added complication.

Except that if it were just Id blocking the memory of LC, there'd be no reason for Bob to not say, "Hey, boss, why are you doing those tracking spells on the floor?  Why not use Little Chicago?"  To which Harry would say, "Huh?"

Even if it was another case of the tarp-spell blotting out any reference to the subject (a la Harry hearing garbled noise at the phrase "blasting rod"), Bob will still notice that Harry wasn't replying to his questions.  And he would have brought it up.

So there has to be another reason for Bob to also not suggest using LC.  Either Mab did it, and intimidated Bob into silence, or LC was just broken at the time.  The latter seems unlikely, as you'd think there'd be some dialogue expressing his frustration that the one tool he needed right then wasn't working.

[raidem]

There is a strong argument to be made that IdHarry results from TT Harry sticking his hand in things via Harry's mental/subconscious processes.

[jonas]

The thing about ID doing it, Id is basically the same as MM Harry as far as looks, Givin the Mirroring of things and the nature of a 'collective unconsciousness' being it's own aspect of the mind, I find it probable ID's attempts at communication could also be colored by an alt Harry mucking about in the same grey space of below conscious suggestion to effect changes in the timeline/reality that are favorable.

If my theory on LC surviving and being used to access the point in time and space that it still matches up to are correct, it was hidden like the delorian was, under a big tarp lol. It, besides being an active thaumaturgy connection, could be used for it's connection to what was, the past.

[Froklsnt]

Except that if it were just Id blocking the memory of LC, there'd be no reason for Bob to not say, "Hey, boss, why are you doing those tracking spells on the floor?  Why not use Little Chicago?"  To which Harry would say, "Huh?"

Even if it was another case of the tarp-spell blotting out any reference to the subject (a la Harry hearing garbled noise at the phrase "blasting rod"), Bob will still notice that Harry wasn't replying to his questions.  And he would have brought it up.

So there has to be another reason for Bob to also not suggest using LC.  Either Mab did it, and intimidated Bob into silence, or LC was just broken at the time.  The latter seems unlikely, as you'd think there'd be some dialogue expressing his frustration that the one tool he needed right then wasn't working.

You're right, Bob is implicated. That was actually the discussion that brought this theory about. Bob missing LC is odd. The lack of any dialog about LC at all is odd. Mab had access to the lab at this time, (assuming she meant no harm) so it's possible she's involved. I'll admit it's more of a reach though. I also tried to tie Bob's request for an extra vessel into the OP, but that might be pushing it too.


I shouldn't be surprised that any post about LC and Id Harry eventually turns to time travel. There's nothing to rule it out, and it's hard to deny the ties and resemblance. However. It's really only TC where Little Chicago goes unused, unmentioned, unseen. It's used in SmF, mentioned in SJ, gone in TC, back in Changes. Is the implication that there's time travel in TC? If so, why the timing that blocks him from finding Shagnasty? Why does that sync up with the Bonnie headache that blocks the same thing with Mouse?

[Griffyn612]

You're right, Bob is implicated. That was actually the discussion that brought this theory about. Bob missing LC is odd. The lack of any dialog about LC at all is odd. Mab had access to the lab at this time, (assuming she meant no harm) so it's possible she's involved. I'll admit it's more of a reach though. I also tried to tie Bob's request for an extra vessel into the OP, but that might be pushing it too.


I shouldn't be surprised that any post about LC and Id Harry eventually turns to time travel. There's nothing to rule it out, and it's hard to deny the ties and resemblance. However. It's really only TC where Little Chicago goes unused, unmentioned, unseen. It's used in SmF, mentioned in SJ, gone in TC, back in Changes. Is the implication that there's time travel in TC? If so, why the timing that blocks him from finding Shagnasty? Why does that sync up with the Bonnie headache that blocks the same thing with Mouse?

I'm not a big proponent of time travel in the series outside of a potential PG visit in a future book.  So I have nothing to help that particular avenue of discussion.

But as to Bob, it's not inconceivable that the backup skull was rooted in a desire for a bolt hole because Mab knew where he was.  If Mab was visiting on occasion, doing her duties for the imprisoned Lea at minimum, then she likely knew he was there.

Her strolling into the lab and circling the table, her eyes on his skull as she traces her fingers along the model's skyline, would be enough to have him moting in his occipital region, if you know what I mean.  Getting him to agree to not mention the model for Harry's safety would be child's play.

[Froklsnt]

Her strolling into the lab and circling the table, her eyes on his skull as she traces her fingers along the model's skyline, would be enough to have him moting in his occipital region, if you know what I mean.  Getting him to agree to not mention the model for Harry's safety would be child's play.

I like how you think 

When you put it that way, the whole proposal makes more sense. Not to mention that it makes Mab's request to kill Maeve more reasonable, since she knew Harry had access to the knowledge about how to do it.

I'm not a huge time travel advocate either, but I'm up for the discussion.

[Froklsnt]

Restating the proposed scenario, in light of the discussion we've had, integrating some of Griffyn's ideas:

Let's imagine a scene, at the beginning of Small Favor. Mab has entered Harry's mind, and is approached by Id Harry, who has the relatively recent task of watching over the newborn Bonnie. And Id Harry and Mab begin to deal. IH wants Harry's immediate survival, protection for Bonnie, and a chance to get laid. Mab wants Harry as Winter Knight, and also wants to earn Harry yet more power. Mab sees someone she can work with. So, the bargain is struck, and a relationship begun.

Id Harry will guide Harry ever closer to taking Mab up on her offer of Winter Knighthood. This will aid in Harry's survival and further amass power to help protect Bonnie. Plus, being WK definitely ups the chances that Harry will finally have some sex. More generally, the WK mantle will increase IH's power over what Harry does, as it encourages Harry to pursue his more animalistic, base tendencies. To enable IH to help further with these goals, Mab will give IH the ability to hide Harry's memories from himself.  IH is responsible for hiding Harry's fire magic for most of SmF, at Mab's behest as part of this deal.

On Demonreach, during the final battle of SmF, IH sees an opportunity to win further favor with Mab. Before Michael goes up into the helicopter, IH guides Harry's hand during a distracted moment, similar to when Harry picked up the denarius instead of Harry Carpenter (DM), or when Mab made Harry stab himself (SK). IH take's Thorned Namshiel's hand from Michael's pouch, and stows it away in one of Harry's pockets, unbeknownst to the conscious Harry.

At the conclusion of SmF, in the hospital chapel, Mab enters Harry's head again. IH presents his gift to Mab, the fallen who assaulted her castle. He is rewarded with a Winter boon, a fine-wrought silver snowflake pin, analogous to the leaf pin Harry received from Summer for his efforts in PG. IH is wearing this pin on his lapel next time we see him, in SG. With Demonreach in the discussion, IH mentions his sight visions to Mab. They further their bargain, adding the goal of guiding Harry becoming the Warden of Demonreach, newly within Harry's capability thanks to the gift of soulfire.

In TC, IH and Mab coordinate their efforts to assure that Harry moves towards the island. IH prevents Harry from confronting Shagnasty directly, by blocking out Little Chicago at a crucial moment and making sure Bonnie triggers a headache when Harry goes for Mouse. Instead he puts the idea in his head to take Morgan to Demonreach, and to perform a Sanctum Invocation. He is Harry's intuition, after all. Mab plays her part here as well, intimidating Bob into silence over why Harry isn't using LC. Since Lea was still a Sidhe-sicle, Mab could come and go as she pleased from the Harry's lab during TC, through Lea's garden, assuming she meant no harm. And Harry only goes into the lab the one time in that whole case. Plus, Mab foresees a side benefit of terrifying the little air spirit; he'll ask Harry to prepare a second vessel as a bolt hole, which will then be in place for when Bonnie is born. And since Mab knows Harry has access to Bob, she can be confident in CD that he has access to the info on how to kill Maeve.  Furthermore, Mab helps guide Molly towards the skill level and power she will need to perform the "delivery" of Bonnie.

[kazimmoinuddin]

Knowledge of winter lore is a kind of subconscious thing, so ID Harry might be more fully aware of such knowledge so better able to advise Harry.