Author Topic: Archangels to Fallen Angels  (Read 4982 times)

Offline Con

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Archangels to Fallen Angels
« on: September 30, 2017, 07:23:32 AM »
Okay so across multiple denominations there are usually seven archangels the earliest source is book of Enoch. They are Michael (Sunday), Gabriel (Monday), Raphael (Tuesday), Uriel (Wednesday), Raguel (Thursday), Remiel (Friday; Who fell from Grace) and Sariel (Saturday)

The first four we know, interestingly some early myths attribute a Sammael with falling from Grace which could be either Remiel or Sariel depending on whose mispronouncing it with a heavy inflicted accent. I'm assuming the two got mixed up a lot by various translators over the years and may even have started out as the same being.

Similarly Raphael and Raguel who in addition to their similar names seem to share much the same duties. Both police demons and fallen angels binding them when they step over the line.

When I started this topic I was going to theorise two of the Archangels had either died or fallen with Lucifer. My main evidence being. Anduriel and Lasciel.

Thanks to a http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,45443.0.html which I encourage you to read as a thorough background for this topic.
Anduriel:Etymology:
Latin, An- (without) + Hebrew, Uri'el (Light of God). 
"Shadow of God" or "God is My Shadow"   
Griffyn612
Etymology:
Latin, An- (without) + Hebrew, Duri'el (God is My Home, I Live in Heaven). 
"Apart From God" or "Fallen From Heaven"   
peregrine
Etymology:
Combination of Andariel and Duriel (fictional angels from Diablo).   
Dina
DF Title:
"Master of Shadows"

This is in addition to his title being Shadowmaster, which as Kringle confirmed means spy master. My theory is that Anduriel used by The Uriel. The one who killed firs borns and seven plagues of Egypt. He rebelled and changed his nature, his will to the point that he made himself for the opposite purpose he was for. Lucifer fearing a fellow Archangel in Hell banished him to the mortal plane.

Our current Uriel inherited the mantle and as the youngest Archangel can interact with particular humans more readily then the others can (which I imagine they're jealous about). Anduriels true goal therefore isn't the fight against Outsiders but to be released from his coin, back to his former glory and beyond. Which I suspect he originally didn't want competition from Outsiders, but by the end of the series will use them to further his goals betraying Nicodemus and his own nature once and for all.

Lasciel:Etymology:
Latin, lascivus (wanton) + Hebrew, El (God). 
"Wanton(ness) of God"   
Etymology:
Latin, lascivious (lustful) + Hebrew, El (God). 
"Lustfulness of God"   
DF Title:
"Seducer", "Webweaver", "Temptress"   
Sigil:
"Reminiscent of an hourglass"   
Combat Form:
"her clothing just . . . dissolved, like so much smoke, into a clinging, purplish mist that drifted around her in spiraling tendrils— not so much for modesty as for accent, yet for the most part, covering her most delicate parts with the same coyness as a fan dancer’s feathers."   
Status of Coin:
Inactive (in Underworld of Hades)   
Known Hosts:
Hannah Ascher   
Lore Refs:
Possibly a thematic reference to the Babylonian goddess Ishtar.  Ishtar seduced and destroyed many lovers before being rejected by the hero Gilgamesh, who she then attempted to murder.  Ishtar was slain in the Underworld after removing her clothes to pass through the gates and becoming enraged.  (Later resurrected, when all sexual activity on Earth stopped in her absence.)   
Lore Refs:
Sigil may be reference to a woman-as-spider/seducer motif, relating title of "Webweaver" to a black widow's thorax.

Now bear with me cause this ones slightly thinner. Lashiel is again a spy master though in choosing her own nature she was careful to select Webweaver and a spider as her sigil. Spider is also a term of a spymaster. But Webweaver has also enough nuance of definition to apply to magic as well. Weave a spell together was often done by weaving silk or needles in myth and folklore and was a basis of witchcraft.

In addition several myths of Lucifer's fall attribute it to his falling in love or atleast in lust depending on the version with a woman. In some versions she's a fellow angel, in others she's a demon in many of the original myths she was among the humans that the Grigori fell for. It's literally where the term falling in love comes from. Falling from the heavens from God's grace because you are so enraptured with love for a human. In any case in most modern adaption this figure Lucifer fell for is often Identified with Lilith- Adams first wife and according to some Lucifers first conversion into a demon.

I believe Jim took inspiration from these myths and created a sympathetic version of Lilith within the Dresden Files. I don't believe she was necessarily an Archangel but according to woj. She was one of the ones sitting on the fence during the rebellion possibly in part because of her torn love between God and Lucifer.

Finally lets look at Lucifer himself.

Lucifer:Non-DF Etymology:
Lucifer.  Latin, Lux (light) + Ferrous (bearing).
"Light-bearing" or "Lightbringer".
Non-literal: "Morningstar", "Daystar", "Shining One", "Shining Star."   
Non-DF Etymology:
Satan.  Hebrew, Satan.
"Adversary".   
Non-DF Etymology:
Samael.  Hebrew, Sama'el.
"Venom of God".   
Warden John Marcone
DF Title:
"The Dark Prince", "The Prince of Fucking Darkness", "Father of Lies", "Darkest Shadow"   
Warden John Marcone, Griffyn612, wizard nelson, peregrine
Lore Refs:
Fallen archangel or angel in most Judeo-Christian religious traditions.  Jinn in Islamic traditions.   
Lore Refs:
Samael is regarded as a different entity, an archangel of death, in most contemporary sources.

ok note the bolded, underlined and italics section. Lux (light) Ferrous (Bearing). LightBearing. lets just switch them around a bit like Lasciel did in Dead Beat and create another anagram FerrousLux another word for Lux or Light by the way is Fax. FerrousFax= Ferrofax. = Mr. Ferro = One of the Last true remaining Dragons = Lucifer and Sammael are often both equated as serpents who can fly with the gift of fire= Dragon. Capital D.

oh and also Michael Carpenter is clearly Michael the Archangel made human as a reward so he can have a righteous life on earth with a family he loves and cares for.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 03:55:24 AM by Con »

Offline jamescagney22

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Re: 7 Archangels to 5
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2017, 06:40:09 PM »
Another interesting aspect is that Uriel shares Wednesday with the All Father Odin. That day must have associations with spies or behind the scenes deities.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: 7 Archangels to 5
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2017, 07:30:32 PM »
What are the meanings of the other proposed archangels?  Raguel, Sariel, Remiel, etc (there are other proposed names on the wiki page)

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: 7 Archangels to 5
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2017, 12:25:23 AM »
Well, Mab was pretty clear in talking about there being the four loyal ones, at least in the present day. I would probably take it as just the DV is written according to five-archangel legends rather than seven, until or unless there's any hint from Jim that there used to be two more but they died.

Offline Con

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Re: Archangels to Fallen Angels
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2017, 04:01:00 AM »
What are the meanings of the other proposed archangels?  Raguel, Sariel, Remiel, etc (there are other proposed names on the wiki page)
Raguel means friend of god, Ramiel means Thunder of God and Sariel means Prince of God.

Raguel's purpose seems identical to Raphael's without the healing element.

Ramiel is only ever mentioned once in a passage of 20 angels so I'm not sure why he is prposed as one the seven archangels there might be more information on him elsewhere.

Sariel seem to be another translation of Sammael down to his roles as an angel of death, psychopomp and leader of fifth heaven they must be the same angel. Given the translation of the name and Lucifers role of Prince of Hell, I believe there to be a connection. Though according to wikipedia he's also identified with Azrael.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Archangels to Fallen Angels
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2017, 11:13:33 AM »
Raguel means friend of god, Ramiel means Thunder of God and Sariel means Prince of God.

Raguel's purpose seems identical to Raphael's without the healing element.

Ramiel is only ever mentioned once in a passage of 20 angels so I'm not sure why he is prposed as one the seven archangels there might be more information on him elsewhere.

Sariel seem to be another translation of Sammael down to his roles as an angel of death, psychopomp and leader of fifth heaven they must be the same angel. Given the translation of the name and Lucifers role of Prince of Hell, I believe there to be a connection. Though according to wikipedia he's also identified with Azrael.
Too bad Remiel's (thunder) day wasn't Thursday.  We might have had something there.

Offline Con

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Re: Archangels to Fallen Angels
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2017, 07:14:37 AM »
Too bad Remiel's (thunder) day wasn't Thursday.  We might have had something there.

Siiigh* Vadderung can't be everyone you know.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Archangels to Fallen Angels
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2017, 11:32:19 AM »
Siiigh* Vadderung can't be everyone you know.
I was more thinking Thursday as in Thor's day, god of thunder.