Author Topic: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)  (Read 16497 times)

Online Mira

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2017, 08:20:02 PM »
I'm kind of with Mira, except for one thing.

Murphy is a Catholic.

Now, there is nothing to prevent her being one of the chosen, but her residing in Valhalla in her afterlife would cause a conflict with TWG (I'd think).

Then again, we have seen where one's actions prepare one for things that are not what you'd think (cough-cough Winter lady mantle).  So, it's entirely possible that Karrin's actions have prepared her for the Enherjerin (however you spell it.)

I meant to say that she could go to Valhalla because she is a warrior, Gard would say that.  She could also go straight through the door to Judgement, as you say she has that kind of faith... But I think peace and happiness for her would be joining her father and working for Uriel.

Offline dspringer1

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2017, 08:44:27 PM »
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I've been thinking about Harry's future, and he wont make the Senior Council during the series.  After, who knows, but not during.  He's just too young.  Sure, they could change the way they pick the SC, but I doubt that's going to happen.

Now, that's not to say he won't be A leader of the council by the time the BAT rolls around.  I think he'll have the Blackstaff by then, and that'll be his major role in the council.

I think that in the end days of the final trilogy, Harry will rally the shattered and broken White Council to action against the outsiders and do so as the new Merlin -- as the current Merlin would be dead along with most/all of the senior council.   It is dramatic - which the series is.  It is also symmetry - I think the BC has worked from day 1 to shatter the White council so they can rebuild it into a new image.  That Harry is the one to step up and define that new image is karma at its best. 



Offline magnuskn

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2017, 01:58:48 AM »
I meant to say that she could go to Valhalla because she is a warrior, Gard would say that.  She could also go straight through the door to Judgement, as you say she has that kind of faith... But I think peace and happiness for her would be joining her father and working for Uriel.

That is actually not peace and happiness, as was noted in Ghost Story. Purgatory (or whatever you want to call the in-between) is for people who can't pass on, because they are not at peace with their fate.

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2017, 03:31:15 AM »
My personal WAG? Once everything is set and done, the BAT is survived etc. There is no White Council anymore. There is the Paranet and its highest position is the Dresden.

If so, then the current membership of the Council has to join the Paranet, or that won't work.  The Paranet are minor mages, the equivalent of your local high school baseball team, or at most the local college team.  The Council is MLB.

Which is not to say the Council won't get upended.  The Council has been around, according to Harry, for thousands of years, 'in one form or another'.  I suspect that means that it's a little like China.  Periodic collapses, disruptions, civil wars, internal coups, whatever, but when it's over things calm down and 'the White Council' continues.

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2017, 03:37:07 AM »
I think that in the end days of the final trilogy, Harry will rally the shattered and broken White Council to action against the outsiders and do so as the new Merlin -- as the current Merlin would be dead along with most/all of the senior council.   It is dramatic - which the series is.  It is also symmetry - I think the BC has worked from day 1 to shatter the White council so they can rebuild it into a new image.  That Harry is the one to step up and define that new image is karma at its best.

I think it's completely possible, even likely, that later in life Harry will become the leader of the Council.  But I can't picture a Wizard as young as he is being Merlin within the time span of the series.  Maybe he might lead the Council very unofficially and very temporarily, in some freakish emergency, but he's not even freaking 100 yet.  From the Council POV, he's a barely out of 'new recruit' status.

One of the biggest flaws of the Star Trek movie reboot is that in the first one, Cadet Kirk gets promoted to Captain and put in command of the most important ship in the fleet, right out of the Academy.  That threw a lot of people's WSOD, and for good reason.  I would have the same sort of reaction if Harry became the Merlin within the time-span of the series.

The one exception I could think of it is so many people die in the BAT that at the end of it, Harry is actually one of the senior surviving Wizards.  It is supposed to be an apocalyptic trilogy, so I suppose that could happen.  But if things go so bad in the BAT that Harry, Molly, Carlos, etc. actually are the senior Wizards, then things were really, really, really bad.


Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2017, 03:40:00 AM »
Murphy may take a different role -- that of advisor and chief of staff for Dresden.  He already has a track record of going to Murphy for advice and Murphy already has a track record of organizing the Paranet. 

I can totally see Murphy being lost (career wise) in Peace Talks and leaving Peace Talks with new direction -- as the warleader of Harry's forces.  She will be the one that coordinates the paranet, works closely with Billy, leverages the wee folk, and coordinates with SI, manages alliances with other powers.   After all, she has already been doing this while Harry has been dead.  Harry is still going to be there at the decision points, but the groundwork behind these decisions can now be delegated to Murphy. 


That would be one way to go.  It might esp. make sense if her wounded leg doesn't heal quite up to standard, which is by no means impossible.

The only thing is...that's more or less consigning Karrin to a background role.  It's not quite being put on a bus, but it would be the next thing to Michael's retirement.  She would still show up regularly, but she wouldn't still be a major player in the story in the same way the others are.

Nor does it do anything to make the Harry/Karrin romance any less fraught.  That's another thing that I think might have missed its launch window.

Online Mira

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2017, 04:42:46 AM »
That is actually not peace and happiness, as was noted in Ghost Story. Purgatory (or whatever you want to call the in-between) is for people who can't pass on, because they are not at peace with their fate.


  It would, in the sense she would be working with her beloved father, and she'd be doing meaningful work.  It also would be, if it was her choice to do so.  Remember Harry had that choice at the end of Ghost Story, he chose to move on and face what was to come..

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2017, 06:45:49 AM »
While I agree with the main point of the OP that Murphy's ability to be in the thick of the fight has been severely diminished and it may seem that she could become redundant to the overall story; however, I think Karrin Murphy helps keep Harry's perspective and perhaps his morality anchored in the real world.  Without her he might as well take up residence at Arctis Tor (OK I'm ignoring his daughter for this hypothetical example) and only come out when someone sets off a BAT signal that Chicago needs help or Mab needs something done or done in. 

I'm not saying I like everything Jim has done with Murphy since Changes; particularly in Cold Days, but at the end of the day I think she's in the overall story arc for more than her physical toughness.  A perfect example is Murphy in Summer Knight when Harry finally spills his guts and tells her about the White Council or in a later story when Harry tells Murphy that he's afraid he might really be the ticking time bomb the Council thinks he is.  Karrin Murphy is more than Harry's cheerleader in these situations and she does more than just give him good advice. (Well most of the time it's good advice.)  She keeps Harry centered in a way that no one else does.  I'm not sure how to express it more clearly than that. 

If Murphy was to die anytime soon I think it would be hard for Harry to remain himself.  He would necessarily become a darker character.  I think that would be the case even if he managed to become a decent father.  Harry has already had to face his darker impulses that Lash brought to the surface and he continues to battle Winter's influence.  Let's not forget that Harry had to kill Susan to save his daughter's life and the lives of his friends.  I not sure I would want to read him any longer if he has to take another blow like that. 

Finally, even if she came back as a Valkyrie I doubt Karrin Murphy could be same moral force in Harry's life that she has been before.  Without knowing how Jim would write such a transformation I am willing to bet it dramatically changes the perspective and eventually the personality of the person involved.  It wouldn't be the win-win scenario some people think it would.  Now that's just speculation on my part so I'll leave it at that.
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Offline magnuskn

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2017, 10:50:13 AM »

  It would, in the sense she would be working with her beloved father, and she'd be doing meaningful work.  It also would be, if it was her choice to do so.  Remember Harry had that choice at the end of Ghost Story, he chose to move on and face what was to come..

Well, I guess it is a matter of definition. If she feels fulfilled staying in-between, that'd be good enough for her, I guess. Then again, she's devoutly catholic and she also would feel compelled to move on.

Anyway, I still believe that she probably would not stay dead if the funeral thing is for real and not a joke. And being transformed into a valkyrie seems the most probable option.

Online Mira

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2017, 11:30:56 AM »
Well, I guess it is a matter of definition. If she feels fulfilled staying in-between, that'd be good enough for her, I guess. Then again, she's devoutly catholic and she also would feel compelled to move on.

Anyway, I still believe that she probably would not stay dead if the funeral thing is for real and not a joke. And being transformed into a valkyrie seems the most probable option.

Which would be worse for her if she is a devote Catholic as you say because she'd be an instrument of a pagan religion.

Offline dspringer1

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2017, 03:20:37 PM »
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I think it's completely possible, even likely, that later in life Harry will become the leader of the Council.  But I can't picture a Wizard as young as he is being Merlin within the time span of the series.  Maybe he might lead the Council very unofficially and very temporarily, in some freakish emergency, but he's not even freaking 100 yet.  From the Council POV, he's a barely out of 'new recruit' status.

One of the biggest flaws of the Star Trek movie reboot is that in the first one, Cadet Kirk gets promoted to Captain and put in command of the most important ship in the fleet, right out of the Academy.  That threw a lot of people's WSOD, and for good reason.  I would have the same sort of reaction if Harry became the Merlin within the time-span of the series.


In the normal course of events, you are absolutely right.  Harry would need to be several hundred years old before he could ever be a senior council member, much less the Merlin.  But the rules change in a major crisis (political or survival).  Very dramatic changes can occur in how people are governed in a very short period of time.  If the leadership if the white council is disgraced and/or dead, and the white council as a whole faces the very real possibility of eminent destruction, then very dramatic changes in leadership are very possible.

In that scenario, Harry Dresden can be a very attractive leader.  It was Harry to revealed the corruption of members of the senior council (speculating).  It was Harry who had the power to destroy the Red Court and save the White council.  Harry has close alliances with several powerful supernatural nations.  It was Harry who even the Senior Council and old Merlin feared.   It was Harry who people whisper was born to fight the outsiders.  It was Harry who is the poster child for the younger wizards -- who seems able to navigate the modern world with ease.  It was Harry who founded the Paranet to save wizards.  It was Harry whose deeds are legend within the White Council.  The old leaders have failed.  People are scared.  It is quite possible that Harry gets enough support to take the position, especially if the other candidates are uninspiring or proven to be traitors and Harry gets endorsed by a few old and respected wizards like Gatekeeper. 

Yes there is no way he would win against McCoy or Luccio, but he could win against noticeably less impressive candidates.  It may not even be close.   


Offline Kindler

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2017, 05:08:26 PM »
That is actually not peace and happiness, as was noted in Ghost Story. Purgatory (or whatever you want to call the in-between) is for people who can't pass on, because they are not at peace with their fate.

I'd think, on her way through Purgatory, she picks up her dad, and they move on together. If, you know, it happens at all, which I really doubt.

I also doubt she'll be turned into a Valkyrie, or anything supernatural. There's not much to be gained narratively by doing so, except to screw up her relationship with Dresden. At this point, if that happens, why bother even writing the relationship at all? It'd be a staggering anticlimax to happen in the next book or two.

No, I expect Murphy's role to be significant, but not on the front lines. She doesn't need to be fighting at Harry's side; he's done the Battle Couple thing with her, Susan, and Luccio often enough that it doesn't bring anything new to the table. And, as I've said in way too many threads already, I fully expect her to be involved with Tilly forming an FBI version of SI in Chicago, as Tilly's liaison with the supernatural community.

Aside from that, don't discount her role with Maggie. Dresden's daughter is going to need someone a bit more stable around, like she had with Michael and Charity. Harry's first experience with a stable environment was with Ebenezer, and by then he was sixteen and already had two burned building under his belt. I fully expect Murphy to become the "favorite aunt" she's frequently described as. She is, after all, the second person shown holding Maggie, and the only one Dresden relinquishes her to after Chichen Itza. I'm not saying she settles down to be a stereotypical housewife or anything, because that isn't Murphy, but I'd like to see how that relationship develops, and if she has any involvement in the YA series, maybe as the person Maggie calls instead of Dresden because she knows Murphy won't blow a whole through the school if she needs help.

Kind of the reverse of the Molly-Harry relationship, where the firstborn daughter sees a normal person show up and do normal things instead of a wizard showing up covered in blood.

After The Warrior, where Jim kind of hammers home the idea that the Fight doesn't stop because the soldier isn't increasing his body count, I really, really doubt he'd have Murphy get powered up.

Online Mira

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2017, 05:52:50 PM »
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No, I expect Murphy's role to be significant, but not on the front lines. She doesn't need to be fighting at Harry's side; he's done the Battle Couple thing with her, Susan, and Luccio often enough that it doesn't bring anything new to the table. And, as I've said in way too many threads already, I fully expect her to be involved with Tilly forming an FBI version of SI in Chicago, as Tilly's liaison with the supernatural community.

I don't think that would work at all.  Mainly because Murphy has always been a front line type of fighter, prided herself on that fact.  That was a lot of her charm, not just steadying Harry, but pulling his cookies out of the fire on several occasions..  I doubt she'd ever be happy as a desk jockey...

Offline DonBugen

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2017, 07:10:34 PM »
Folks, the bottom line is that Jim can't keep Harry happy for long.  If he's finally started up a relationship with Murph, then she can't be long for this world.

I actually really, REALLY like this Valkyrie (or at least einherjar) theory. It's the kind of foreshadowing that fits Jim. Oddly, I don't think that her Catholicism would be a barrier, mostly because we've slowly been seeing her faith being worn down. Dresden's Sight of her in White Night, for example, is far more tattered than in GP, and she's had the world ripped away from her several times. She may not realize it yet, but I think that Dresden's death and the aftermath fundamentally changed her - no longer capable of welding the Sword, but still believing she could.

To be honest, in this "God is like three blind men describing an elephant" world, I think that Dresden is by far more the follower of TWG than Karrin is. And that's my two cents, controversial as it may be.


Offline nervousenergy

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2017, 08:48:47 PM »
Saying that Murphy is the last true blue mortal on the team is a good point. However, her getting so badly wounded by Nic that she'll never recover 100% is also a point where you got to wonder what her future role as "the normal" is going to be in the series. It's fully possible that she'll transition into another role, but given how much her identity has been to be this tough woman, I bet it would trigger even more of an identity crisis than she already had after having to leave the CPD.
This is the key point I don't see discussed all that much.  The blow to Murphy at the end of Skin Game was profound, and has come on top of a long series of blows.  As others have noted, she can't hang... not on the physical level that she's spent so much time training for.  And now she's physically broken, and has taken a huge guilt hit by being the catalyst that destroyed one of the holy swords.  Yes, it got remade almost immediately, but it's human nature to feel a huge sense of personal failure for the first event.  Physically broken, morally broken, all of her lifelong personality anchors ripped away.  When I finished Skin Game I thought for sure she was being set up to be tempted by a Coin, given how bad of a place she was going to be in.

Sure, she can do all of these roles that folks are postulating... but look at it from the point of view of her character.  What can she do from the depths of the despair that's *got* to be crushing in on her after the events of SG?  JB can write this sooo many ways...