Author Topic: How Heavy are the Rules?  (Read 5721 times)

Offline lankyogre

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How Heavy are the Rules?
« on: July 14, 2017, 04:28:37 PM »
I picked up DFRPG when it first came out and tried to run a brief game without success. I've run a few demos and played in some online games, but that was all years ago, so I've been detached from things for a bit.
I tried playing Pathfinder with a couple of people, but it was too rules heavy and character creation was too much. I'm trying to think of another game to suggest. From what I remember, character creation can have a lot of rules-based options, in addition to the aspects that can require work. The gameplay though, is lighter on the rules thank d20, unless spells are involved. The other side of this though, is that player creativity is required in describing and flavoring various actions. Is this appraisal correct for those of you who have played more?
For those who are familiar with both d20 based games and DFRPG, how would you say they compare in character creation and gameplay rules?

Offline Taran

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Re: How Heavy are the Rules?
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2017, 06:04:42 PM »
I find 5e D&D less crunchy than Pathfinder but, despite this, I've often wasted hours on character creation trying to drum up the perfect combinations of feats, classes etc, in order to bring a character concept to life.

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The other side of this though, is that player creativity is required in describing and flavoring various actions.
I don't play as much d20 any more but, when I do I sometimes find it restrictive.  I enjoy describing an action. 
You can ask the question, "can I do this?" and, in DFRPG it's almost always "yes".  Find the right skill and the right action-type and it's doable.  In d20, often times the answer is 'you need a feat for that.'

DFRPG and Fate, in general, can have a quick start-up because nothing is written in stone.  You can adjust character abilities and skills at milestones.  The aspects can take a while to hammer out but, once again, at the beginning, you can use place-holder aspects or keep some open and fill them in as the game progresses or change them at milestones.

In both games, if you aren't used to running or playing it, use the templates (or the quick start-up characters in d20 phb) and just play.  It's the easiest way to learn and the fastest way to get going.  Chances are, though, once you start playing, you'll be referring to the rule-books less in DFRPG than Pathfinder. 

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unless spells are involved
Spells are always more work in any system.  The advantage in D&D is, once you have your slots, it's done.  Cast the spell.  The down-side is you always have to look up the various spell descriptions and, sometimes choosing spells is a pain.

In DFRPG, learning the spellcasting system is harder but, once you know it, you never have to go back and look up rules for individual spells.  Ever.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2017, 06:09:03 PM by Taran »

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: How Heavy are the Rules?
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2017, 06:32:33 PM »
DFRPG is much lighter than Pathfinder.

Offline g33k

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Re: How Heavy are the Rules?
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2017, 12:27:48 AM »
DFRPG is much lighter than Pathfinder.
 
Yes; but the OP has captured a genuine issue in that Aspect Creation, from High Concept on down, requires more from the player than the "Choose from lists of classes/skills/feats/etc" that is d20/PF character-creation.  Players can hit a creativity block !

Offline lankyogre

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Re: How Heavy are the Rules?
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2017, 06:02:28 PM »
With running demo games, I quickly got to the point where I almost never referred to the rule book in DFRPG. I think that if the group is interested in the premise, the modern setting might help with the RP choices. Also, there are a couple of players that struggle with all the options in Pathfinder combat. Especially how many options you either have to devote resources to being good, or not bother trying. Ex tripping and intimidate. The aspect system of Fate allows those sort of actions to all be possible.
I think the aspects could also help create a list of pre-chosen courses of action. I.e. Choosing the aspect "It's Clobbering Time," means that when in doubt, smash something.

Offline g33k

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Re: How Heavy are the Rules?
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2017, 08:08:07 PM »
... Pathfinder ... character creation was too much...
The other thing to note is that d20/PF character-building & optimizing is its own entire minigame, which some folks really love... but others hate.  It's enough of a "thing" that there are well-known fan-driven how-to's for many builds -- the "Druid/Shifter" build, the "Battlefield-Control" wizard, the "Arcane Artillery" caster, etc etc etc.

"Help me with Concept <X> in the RPG" for fora (like this one) dedicated to particular RPG's is a well-known topic in most RPG's, but d20/PF takes that craft to a different level than any other I've seen...

Offline Taran

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Re: How Heavy are the Rules?
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2017, 05:28:15 PM »
Yes; but the OP has captured a genuine issue in that Aspect Creation, from High Concept on down, requires more from the player than the "Choose from lists of classes/skills/feats/etc" that is d20/PF character-creation.  Players can hit a creativity block !

That's why most Fate games suggest you start with several aspects and fill in the rest in-game.  In fact, I started a new group with pre-gen characters and provided a high concept and a Trouble.  After that, I let any Player assign aspects to themselves or to other characters (providing the owner of the PC agreed).  In fact, I let them spend a FP to invoke aspect on other players' characters even if those PCs didn't have the aspect they were invoking as long as it was fun and the player agreed.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: How Heavy are the Rules?
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2017, 02:59:25 PM »
Eh, I'd say seven or eight pounds, if you're carrying all three books.
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Offline Taran

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Re: How Heavy are the Rules?
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2017, 10:22:34 PM »
Eh, I'd say seven or eight pounds, if you're carrying all three books.

+1

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: How Heavy are the Rules?
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2017, 01:50:19 AM »
Pathfinder, meanwhile, is impossible for most people to lift.

Offline toturi

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Re: How Heavy are the Rules?
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2017, 09:10:15 AM »
Pathfinder, meanwhile, is impossible for most people to lift.
That would depend on how you choose to lift it. Stick it all on an ipad...
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Offline g33k

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Re: How Heavy are the Rules?
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2017, 08:05:47 PM »
That would depend on how you choose to lift it. Stick it all on an ipad...
  I think that might crack the ipad case.  I'd set the ipad on the top, myself.   ;D
Erm... if I had all those PF books, I would.  But I don't own any.

Offline lankyogre

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Re: How Heavy are the Rules?
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2017, 08:56:46 PM »
Eh, I'd say seven or eight pounds, if you're carrying all three books.

Love, great answer.


So then, this prompts me to ask, is Paranet Papers worth it? I haven't been able to pick it up yet. Is there enough to warrant its use or is it mostly the couple of pregenerated areas and updating stats.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: How Heavy are the Rules?
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2017, 09:16:46 PM »
Love, great answer.


So then, this prompts me to ask, is Paranet Papers worth it? I haven't been able to pick it up yet. Is there enough to warrant its use or is it mostly the couple of pregenerated areas and updating stats.
There are a few rules clarifications and expanded stuff that I think is worth it, like how magic works in the Nevernever, allowing for reflexive defense spells, and stats for the later-book monsters and characters.
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

Quote from: Cozarkian
Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast

Offline Taran

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Re: How Heavy are the Rules?
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2017, 02:44:51 PM »
And this is one of the reasons they are shutting down the forum