Author Topic: Bob's Personality, and Justin  (Read 16979 times)

Offline jonas

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Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #60 on: August 18, 2017, 07:41:14 PM »
I'm struggling with your assertion that the table is anything other than a conduit for power.
Can you specify the problem? I base my assumption mostly from
Quote from: Jim
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i am fairly certain, but not positive, that it is not possible to hold both Mantles at once.  Also i do not think that holding both was what Slade was planning.  Slade and the Summer Lady were planning on taking the Summer Knight out of the equation, and thus causing a war. During this war, the Summer Lady would be able to take Lily, the follower of Summer that she put the Mantle on, along with the Unraveling, and sacrifice her for Winter on the Stone Table, thus giving Winter the Energy  that went along with the Knight's Mantle, not the Mantle itself. At least that was how i interpreted it.  The Stone Table doesnt transfer the actual thing that is Sacrificed on the Table from Summer to Winter and vice versa, but the energy and power that it holds.




Finger.  Nose.

Jim :)

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What makes you think that the WK's mantle was tainted in any way?

Also, we know the life-force of Slate was given to Winter, but the WK mantle was not.  It was already Winter's so there is no reason for it to have gone through the table.  It DID just go back to Mab and she bestowed it on Harry.
Then why bother pulling out the special knife(one from the description is later pulled from Hades vault, 3 fae queens in vault as ward/sirens shows evidence of collaboration to some extent) and make him use the table? She didn't want the thing itself back, who'd been working with Nfected Aurora. Just The power to remake it again. She was worried about contamination from reabsorbing it... Makes me wonder at a comparison to lash. She gives out a piece of her power to a mutable mortal... is the mantle impressionable from the bearer? Is this How Kringle got a W mantle of his own identity? Can they take on a changed portion of their own power, thus changing themselves by proxy? Mmm ??? anyway...

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I'm not seeing any evidence that the WK mantle went through the table to Mab to Harry, nor that the table is anything other than a conduit.
Combine the above seeming agreeing woj with what is actually said about the table by Lea and blood spilt upon the table. And doesn't it make it obvious it went through the table via blood? You yourself said we lacked any other manifestation of the power involved there. It's specifically how Aurora thought to transfer the power of the Knights mantle in Sk. Mab transferred the power of the mantle back to winter without accepting potentially damaged goods.
 It IS a conduit, for power itself. A way to separate power from spirit of memory. It would likely be why Mab needed to cement her fae more in reality even though the things they actually inherited their powers from are well known, if now considered mythologically historical, religions.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 07:58:25 PM by jonas »
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Offline Rasins

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Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #61 on: August 22, 2017, 05:04:38 PM »
Then why bother pulling out the special knife(one from the description is later pulled from Hades vault, 3 fae queens in vault as ward/sirens shows evidence of collaboration to some extent) and make him use the table?

It was not the same knife.  We've pretty much identified that the one pulled from the vault was the spear-tip of the Spear of Longinus from the crucifixion.  Along with the other relics on the same stand.

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She didn't want the thing itself back, who'd been working with Nfected Aurora. Just The power to remake it again. She was worried about contamination from reabsorbing it... Makes me wonder at a comparison to lash.
That's just it, based on the quote that Jim Nose/finger'd, the mantle itself didn't go into or though the table, just the power that the mantle had.  And we already know that the power of the Mantle is already part of the power of winter/Mab.  So there is no need for cleansing. 

There is no evidence that Slade was nemfected.  Sadistic and cruel sure, but not nemfected.

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Combine the above seeming agreeing woj with what is actually said about the table by Lea and blood spilt upon the table. And doesn't it make it obvious it went through the table via blood? You yourself said we lacked any other manifestation of the power involved there. It's specifically how Aurora thought to transfer the power of the Knights mantle in Sk.
In SK we saw a transfer of a Mantle, the Summer Knight's mantel, and we didn't see any manifestation like we did of the ladies in CD.

We didn't see a manifestation of the transfer of the WK mantle to Harry either. 

The blood, and Live of Slade, WAS the power used and transferred.  It was transferred through Mab to Harry to heal his body, thus not depleting any of Winter's power, not that that was all that much anyway.

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Mab transferred the power of the mantle back to winter without accepting potentially damaged goods.
Again, no evidence that the Mantle went through the table.  I'll admit that it's possible that the POWER went through the table, but not the mantle itself.  Read the quote that Jim agrees with.

Quote
It IS a conduit, for power itself. A way to separate power from spirit of memory. It would likely be why Mab needed to cement her fae more in reality even though the things they actually inherited their powers from are well known, if now considered mythologically historical, religions.

Huh?  A way to separate from a spirit of memory?  Are you saying that Nemfection is some kind of alternate version of Bob?
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Offline jonas

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Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #62 on: August 22, 2017, 08:44:43 PM »
It was not the same knife.  We've pretty much identified that the one pulled from the vault was the spear-tip of the Spear of Longinus from the crucifixion.  Along with the other relics on the same stand.
With the same bronze blade and leaf shaped Handle... ya can't prove it's not the same one. and fyi, all those relics are also accepted to have probably existed in a different form before being used in the Crucifixion. You can say you don't think it's the same one, but by description there is more for than against.
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That's just it, based on the quote that Jim Nose/finger'd, the mantle itself didn't go into or though the table, just the power that the mantle had.  And we already know that the power of the Mantle is already part of the power of winter/Mab.  So there is no need for cleansing. 
And it's currently in the WK, it's of her but not currently a part of her. If the mantle had gone through the table When Aurora tried it, it would have ceased to exist. What happens to a mantle(if indeed it still exists) when all it's power gets transferred across the table to something or else? it becomes an empty useless cup anyway. So moot either way.
Why yes, there's no need to use the stone table when you already possess the mantle's power in your court, UNLESS what..?

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There is no evidence that Slade was nemfected.  Sadistic and cruel sure, but not nemfected.
In SK we saw a transfer of a Mantle, the Summer Knight's mantel, and we didn't see any manifestation like we did of the ladies in CD.
We saw any such thing? we on screen saw any such thing?

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We didn't see a manifestation of the transfer of the WK mantle to Harry either. 
they did it directly not through the air, either in the act of sex or when she froze his spine back in place. Either way it's straw manning here and above, What does it matter? How does it address an issue? it don't cause we don't know jack about the table except the point I already made, it works with blood, an old primal conduit for power, not through 'manifestation'. Your taking how the mantles were on DR, which isn't the Knights mantle btw, never seen that change in real time, and saying that it applies here when i'm specifically saying here is different. there^ the conduit was blood, and I'm using YOUR OWN ASSERTION that the mantle didn't manifest otherwise to prove it was transferred through said blood as was originally meant by Aurora. The table transfers the power, not the thing itself, the power from spirit/memory, so it rips the power from the memory, ending the you are what you eat effect. Again, that's why Mab's power can come from greek Goddess's but she need's to cement her courts in human memory compared to greek legends, The memory connection was killed but the power itself was transferred...

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The blood, and Live of Slade, WAS the power used and transferred.  It was transferred through Mab to Harry to heal his body, thus not depleting any of Winter's power, not that that was all that much anyway.
That's inference without premise, again... Based on what? Your perceptions only yes?
Again, no evidence that the Mantle went through the table.  I'll admit that it's possible that the POWER went through the table, but not the mantle itself.  Read the quote that Jim agrees with.[/quote]Then what becomes the purpose of sacrifice on the stone table, what 'dies'?

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Huh?  A way to separate from a spirit of memory?  Are you saying that Nemfection is some kind of alternate version of Bob?
Gah, I could explain it all and quote the woj how certain things like Lea are actually elemental parts of the mind and how N is tied up into the collective subconscious and shadow and how everybody has that 'mirror' in themselves and then add in the comparison to MM Harry and Harry's Subconscious and the fae queens being 'mirrors' of themselves to disallow N room to operate in reality on them, as their mirror exists here(citing first day creatures slipping into 'masks', can't slip into the 'mirror' already in existence) ect, ect. but I won't... I rather feel your trying to misunderstand some of this now... :'(
Good Day Sir.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 08:51:45 PM by jonas »
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Offline Mira

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Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #63 on: August 23, 2017, 11:25:33 AM »
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And it's currently in the WK, it's of her but not currently a part of her. If the mantle had gone through the table When Aurora tried it, it would have ceased to exist. What happens to a mantle(if indeed it still exists) when all it's power gets transferred across the table to something or else? it becomes an empty useless cup anyway. So moot either way.
Why yes, there's no need to use the stone table when you already possess the mantle's power in your court, UNLESS what..?

The Mothers said that the mantles pass to the nearest suitable vessel.  The Table isn't needed, when Slade murdered the Summer Knight the mantle was transferred, the Table wasn't needed..  If Lily or Titania needed the Table for Fix to acquire the Summer knight's mantle is was off page... I don't think blood is needed either for it, what is confusing in my opinion is the execution of Slade..  He had to die to give up the mantle, also it all could have been a bit of a perverted show that Mab wanted to put on..  For the simple reason, why would the transfer of the Knight's mantle be so much more elaborate and complicated the the transfer of the Lady's mantle?

Offline Quantus

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Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #64 on: August 23, 2017, 11:47:55 AM »
Based on all the Knight Mantle stuff we saw in SK, I tend to land in the camp that basically all of that scene in CD was Mab asserting dominance over Harry and not any sort of ritual requirement.  It certainly applies to the PPV Sexcapades they broadcast, which was dominance over Harry and an Announcement that She'd finally claimed him.  I think it equally applied to murdering Slade, as that was a turning-point Choice for Harry, when he Murdered a helpless mortal for no other reason than he wanted Power (Harsh, but his own description) and I think she wanted to proove he'd Kill on Orders.  That being said, Mab doesnt do one thing if she can get two for the same effort, and Slade's treatment does somewhat resemble Lea's. I guess wouldn't be surprised to find out that she'd also been treating him for Nemfection, even as a precautionary measure due to his scheming proximity to Aurora. 

New Question:  Would Slade have needed to be Nemfected to Betray the Winter Court and/or the Natural Order to the Summer Lady as he did?  Harry is bound by Winter Law, but it seems to me it's not as forcefully as a queen/lady.
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Offline Zaphodess

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Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #65 on: August 23, 2017, 01:22:01 PM »
New Question:  Would Slade have needed to be Nemfected to Betray the Winter Court and/or the Natural Order to the Summer Lady as he did?  Harry is bound by Winter Law, but it seems to me it's not as forcefully as a queen/lady.
I don't think so, the Knight still has Free Will and can betray his Queen and Court. Aurora seems to have promised him the power of the Summer Knight in addition to that of the Winter Knight. He didn't need to be Nemfected, he was willing.

Fix was bound by a geas in Proven Guilty, so the Queens can restrict their Knights' Free Will to a degree. But I think they have to actively do something specific, meaning they have to think about it in the first place.

Offline Quantus

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Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #66 on: August 23, 2017, 01:28:17 PM »
I don't think so, the Knight still has Free Will and can betray his Queen and Court. Aurora seems to have promised him the power of the Summer Knight in addition to that of the Winter Knight. He didn't need to be Nemfected, he was willing.

Fix was bound by a geas in Proven Guilty, so the Queens can restrict their Knights' Free Will to a degree. But I think they have to actively do something specific, meaning they have to think about it in the first place.
Im not implying that a Knight is restricted in the same way as a Sidhe (as being physically incapable), but per Harry's whole "Screw Winter Law" episode they DO face consequences of such defiance.  He doesnt need a Nemfection to become Willing any more than Maeve did, but he may well have needed a Nemfection to avoid the Fallout of open defiance against Winter. 
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 01:31:05 PM by Quantus »
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Offline Mira

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Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #67 on: August 23, 2017, 02:49:25 PM »
Im not implying that a Knight is restricted in the same way as a Sidhe (as being physically incapable), but per Harry's whole "Screw Winter Law" episode they DO face consequences of such defiance.  He doesnt need a Nemfection to become Willing any more than Maeve did, but he may well have needed a Nemfection to avoid the Fallout of open defiance against Winter.

I don't know if Harry's "screw Winter Law" comment is a very good example, simply because it may have only pertained to the agreement between Harry and Mab..  Or more to the point, knowing her Winter Knight's independent nature and strong will, Mab felt the need to put him in his place.. I think a lot was let to slide when Slade was Knight maybe because Maeve was basically in charge of his duties..  At any rate he was also made an example of by Mab, that there is a serious price to be paid for betraying her.

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Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #68 on: August 23, 2017, 02:50:47 PM »
Im not implying that a Knight is restricted in the same way as a Sidhe (as being physically incapable), but per Harry's whole "Screw Winter Law" episode they DO face consequences of such defiance.  He doesnt need a Nemfection to become Willing any more than Maeve did, but he may well have needed a Nemfection to avoid the Fallout of open defiance against Winter.
Yep, Harry lost what he has bargained for. We don't know what Lloyd Slate has bargained for, it might have been something stupid and he realized that he had been screwed.

Or, he didn't actually break Winter Law. The scheme was based on hurting Summer, which the Winter Knight is allowed to do. It's kind of his purpose. Technically, Winter would have become much more powerful if the Summer Knight's power were added to its pool.

Offline Quantus

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Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #69 on: August 23, 2017, 02:53:08 PM »
Yep, Harry lost what he has bargained for. We don't know what Lloyd Slate has bargained for, it might have been something stupid and he realized that he had been screwed.

Or, he didn't actually break Winter Law. The scheme was based on hurting Summer, which the Winter Knight is allowed to do. It's kind of his purpose. Technically, Winter would have been become much more powerful if the Summer Knight's power were added to its pool.
This is still possible.  The Mission was nominally to Hunt the Summer Knight, but he did so by allying with the Summer Lady, and in at least one instance deliberately failed his task given by the Winter Lady (in not recovering usable Blood from Elaine).
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Offline jonas

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Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #70 on: August 23, 2017, 06:20:45 PM »
The Mothers said that the mantles pass to the nearest suitable vessel.  The Table isn't needed, when Slade murdered the Summer Knight the mantle was transferred, the Table wasn't needed..  If Lily or Titania needed the Table for Fix to acquire the Summer knight's mantle is was off page... I don't think blood is needed either for it, what is confusing in my opinion is the execution of Slade..  He had to die to give up the mantle, also it all could have been a bit of a perverted show that Mab wanted to put on..  For the simple reason, why would the transfer of the Knight's mantle be so much more elaborate and complicated the the transfer of the Lady's mantle?
It's funny, cause I'm pretty sure your disagreeing with me ??? but your also pointing out the direct fallibility in the use of the table. It wasn't needed, She didn't need to have such an elaborate method. BUT Watsonion and doyalist both say, 'why forth then did you do it Holmes?'
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Offline Zaphodess

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Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #71 on: August 24, 2017, 10:10:42 AM »
This is still possible.  The Mission was nominally to Hunt the Summer Knight, but he did so by allying with the Summer Lady, and in at least one instance deliberately failed his task given by the Winter Lady (in not recovering usable Blood from Elaine).
Faerie bargains and law are all about the letter of the law. He did attack Elaine brought back some blood, he just wasn't really successful. Of course that was intentional, but technically, he had followed his orders.

Offline Quantus

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Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #72 on: August 24, 2017, 12:00:57 PM »
Faerie bargains and law are all about the letter of the law. He did attack Elaine brought back some blood, he just wasn't really successful. Of course that was intentional, but technically, he had followed his orders.
This is also true.  And Maeve might not have been as controlled/precise in her wording as Mab might be.  She'd certainly earned his animosity on all it's own. 
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Offline Rasins

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Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #73 on: August 24, 2017, 07:43:58 PM »
AND we don't know that the WK can have a compulsion placed on him to do something.  We haven't seen Harry with any form of magical compulsion placed on him to do, or not do anything as WK.

It could be that Slade could have just sat down and done nothing.  But he had to make it appear as though he was trying to keep the plan going. 
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Bob's Personality, and Justin
« Reply #74 on: August 24, 2017, 07:49:54 PM »
AND we don't know that the WK can have a compulsion placed on him to do something.  We haven't seen Harry with any form of magical compulsion placed on him to do, or not do anything as WK.

It could be that Slade could have just sat down and done nothing.  But he had to make it appear as though he was trying to keep the plan going.
No, but only because Harry very forcefully negotiated against it during his initial Hiring, and Mab has thus far agreed to not risk it; but both acknowledge she has the power.  Meanwhile, we've seen it dont both to Fix as Summer knight and Harry as Winter Emissary.  Im confident that the Queens tpically have and use that power over their knights.   We saw Maeve compel Slate directly in SK, albeit with (not feigned?) difficulty, and we know that slate wasnt an actual fan of hers. 
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