Author Topic: Swords of the Cross vs White Court inner demon: What happens to host?  (Read 4341 times)

Offline Shaft

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If a White Court Vampire with leftover refresh and a tendency towards heroics were to pick up a Sword of the Cross in a Truly Heroic way, could the Sword destroy the white court demon within him and transform him into a Pure Mortal.

For example, if Thomas were to use Amoracchius in a heroic manner, such as defending Justine and being prepared to sacrifice his life to save her while doing so, could that action destroy the demon within him and leave him a human?

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Swords of the Cross vs White Court inner demon: What happens to host?
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2017, 07:28:51 PM »
It's really up to you. Dresdenverse metaphysics aren't solid enough for a hard answer.

Personally, I'd allow it.

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Swords of the Cross vs White Court inner demon: What happens to host?
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2017, 10:48:15 PM »
If I am correctly recalling the events of the Red Court ball (and more importantly, the intended events which thankfully never came to pass), I do not believe this hypothetical WCV would be affected at all.
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Offline dragoonbuster

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Re: Swords of the Cross vs White Court inner demon: What happens to host?
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2017, 05:54:17 AM »
According to Lea, pulling his demon out would kill him. They're inextricably linked. I would say IF the cause is right for the Sword he could pick it up and use it, but going off what Lea says and what happens in Changes, I'd say I'm with Tedronai, no.

Of course, change what you want to suit your game, I guess.
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: Swords of the Cross vs White Court inner demon: What happens to host?
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2017, 12:15:19 PM »
I would say IF the cause is right for the Sword he could pick it up and use it

Again taking cues from what didn't happen at the Red Court ball, I don't think this is necessary.

Anyone can pick up and use the Sword (as though it were a simple sword if nothing else) for any purpose, no matter how foul.
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Offline blackstaff67

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Re: Swords of the Cross vs White Court inner demon: What happens to host?
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2017, 02:38:42 PM »
According to Lea, pulling his demon out would kill him. They're inextricably linked. I would say IF the cause is right for the Sword he could pick it up and use it, but going off what Lea says and what happens in Changes, I'd say I'm with Tedronai, no.

Of course, change what you want to suit your game, I guess.
Perhaps something could be done to put that demon to sleep? Granted, he's lose his powers, but what price love?
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Offline dragoonbuster

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Re: Swords of the Cross vs White Court inner demon: What happens to host?
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2017, 11:28:52 PM »
Perhaps something could be done to put that demon to sleep? Granted, he's lose his powers, but what price love?

She does that to Martin and Susan and it knocks them out. Working from the (perhaps critically erroneous) assumption a RCI's "hunter spirit" or whatever Lea called it is similar in concept to how the Demon works for WCVs, they'd also be knocked out.
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Offline blackstaff67

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Point.  IIRC, upon waking,I think their powers were recovered. 
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Offline g33k

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She does that to Martin and Susan and it knocks them out. Working from the (perhaps critically erroneous) assumption a RCI's "hunter spirit" or whatever Lea called it is similar in concept to how the Demon works for WCVs, they'd also be knocked out.
I would not assume that RCV/WCV work the same in this way.  I'm not saying that they DO NOT do so, just that I wouldn't assume it.  I keep falling into the "vampires are vampires" mind-trap, but they aren't the same!

I don't think canon or WoJ has info sufficient to decide the question, so it boils down to what "feels right" for your game...

My understanding is that the Knights & Swords are about the Denarians, so I'm disinclined to use them to MagicBullet a WCV's demon away; OTOH, a Sword gave Murphy KotC status in fighting RCV's & we know Michael rescued Charity from a dragon, so they DO sometimes act outside the Denarian remit (I blame ineffability).

I think a selfless WCV could use a Sword to do the Knightly work.  It would probably be more a mark of that WCV's ability to master their Demon, than it would act to destroy/bind/etc the Demon...

YMMV

Offline Quantus

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To My knowledge there isnt any WOJ on how it would work in the novels, other than one that says anyone of Mab's level could rip the Hunger right out without much effort, but that it do some serious damage. 

If it were my game, Id use it as a chance to play out one of my long-time hopes, which is that the Sword would not Destroy the Hunger Demon, it would "reform" it (in the judicial sense), helping Thomas the Wampire character to learn how to feed on (and incite) more positive/benevolent emotions like Courage or Empathy or Perseverance or something.  Per WOJ a Wampire Hunger can learn to feed off /any/ strong emotion up to and including Puppy-induced Cuteness overload.


I would not assume that RCV/WCV work the same in this way.  I'm not saying that they DO NOT do so, just that I wouldn't assume it.  I keep falling into the "vampires are vampires" mind-trap, but they aren't the same!

I don't think canon or WoJ has info sufficient to decide the question, so it boils down to what "feels right" for your game...

My understanding is that the Knights & Swords are about the Denarians, so I'm disinclined to use them to MagicBullet a WCV's demon away; OTOH, a Sword gave Murphy KotC status in fighting RCV's & we know Michael rescued Charity from a dragon, so they DO sometimes act outside the Denarian remit (I blame ineffability).

I think a selfless WCV could use a Sword to do the Knightly work.  It would probably be more a mark of that WCV's ability to master their Demon, than it would act to destroy/bind/etc the Demon...

YMMV

They seem to be able to Defend the Innocent against Supernatural Threats regardless of whether the events are directly connected to the Denarians; I strongly suspect the Balance of those two is more esoteric than literal.  Otherwise I'd expect the Knights (especially Sanya) to wonder how cases like Siriothrax or Agatha Hagglethorn connect to the Denarians. 


At one point in GP Thomas was burned by the touch of Amoracchius, though the argument could be made that he was reacting to a powerful Artfact of Love, rather than the reaction to Faith that Blamps and Ramps have.  Given that Susan has been burned at times but not at others, I'd be comfortable with the idea that the Sword itself (or the sword's Management) can prevent it from running afoul of it's wielder's vulnerabilities regardless of what they are, whether they are harmed by items of Love, of Faith-magic, or even of Iron. 


Again taking cues from what didn't happen at the Red Court ball, I don't think this is necessary.

Anyone can pick up and use the Sword (as though it were a simple sword if nothing else) for any purpose, no matter how foul.
I dont think that is the case, at least based on the events of GP.  Anyone/Anything can touch the sword and use it for foul purposes, but only after it has been made vulnerable via mis-use by someone properly entrusted with it; in GP Michael handed it to Harry to hold (implicitly entrusting him with it) at which point Harry screwed the pooch by misuing it against Lea.  Lea said specifically that she'd have been unable to touch it otherwise.  In other words the monsters cannot just knock the knight unconscious to steal and destroy the sword.
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Offline potestas

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Re: Swords of the Cross vs White Court inner demon: What happens to host?
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2017, 02:34:16 PM »
this is were the game and the rules differ. In the game we have enough refresh to avoid becoming the monster. But in the series once the white court innocent feeds they choose to be a monster and there is no going back. As for the only exception in the series thomas is a monster who pretends that he is not. When push came to shove he fed till he killed. Humans can still choose monsters cant. The knight who gave his life for Harry is an example of why humans have choice and monsters don't. Which is kind of the premise of the entire story and the rules of magic. I don't think thomas can ever wield the sword as it was meant to be. He's not human.

Offline Quantus

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Re: Swords of the Cross vs White Court inner demon: What happens to host?
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2017, 05:47:19 PM »
this is were the game and the rules differ. In the game we have enough refresh to avoid becoming the monster. But in the series once the white court innocent feeds they choose to be a monster and there is no going back. As for the only exception in the series thomas is a monster who pretends that he is not. When push came to shove he fed till he killed. Humans can still choose monsters cant. The knight who gave his life for Harry is an example of why humans have choice and monsters don't. Which is kind of the premise of the entire story and the rules of magic. I don't think thomas can ever wield the sword as it was meant to be. He's not human.
He's close enough according to Mab.  The difference with Thomas (and theoretically all the White Court) is that they are still mortals in the sense of having a Mortal Soul and Free Will; in terms of Choice they have as much as any other human being.  They're more an offshoot race like Wizards or Bigfoot than the types of choice-less Monster that most are. 
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Offline khadgar4606

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Re: Swords of the Cross vs White Court inner demon: What happens to host?
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2017, 05:06:38 AM »
Isnt mab said she can use Thomas as her night in one book which Thomas say i am not easy to tempt which harry uses ability to touch justine as temptation

Offline Quantus

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Re: Swords of the Cross vs White Court inner demon: What happens to host?
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2017, 12:44:32 PM »
Isnt mab said she can use Thomas as her night in one book which Thomas say i am not easy to tempt which harry uses ability to touch justine as temptation
Those are separate scenes (both in SmF). Mab tells Harry that Thomas is her next choice for her Knight, but I dont think Thomas has ever been made aware of that.  Separately, Thomas almost touched a Denarian coin, and Harry mentioned that Justine makes a great lever for Temptation and that she barely survived the Demon Thomas already has and doesnt need to face another. 
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Offline khadgar4606

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Re: Swords of the Cross vs White Court inner demon: What happens to host?
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2017, 04:16:35 PM »
Those are separate scenes (both in SmF). Mab tells Harry that Thomas is her next choice for her Knight, but I dont think Thomas has ever been made aware of that.  Separately, Thomas almost touched a Denarian coin, and Harry mentioned that Justine makes a great lever for Temptation and that she barely survived the Demon Thomas already has and doesnt need to face another.
thanks for clarifying my idea so if denarian can f white court demon i think mab can do it to and i think i stand corrected