Author Topic: Current DR wardens  (Read 12562 times)

Offline Krusatta

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Re: Current DR wardens
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2016, 01:48:17 PM »
I didn't realize there was a debate about what Alfred said to Harry.  Thank you for an interesting early morning read.

I assumed Alfred meant "Once upon a time, the Warden of this island was the only one, (and although other wizards and beings may have helped stick inmates in here), it was solely the Warden's job to see that they stayed in and other people stayed out."  Parenthetical statement is purely my inference.

Some other inferences to be made, some are obvious, some are my own, some are in a spirit of playful ridiculousness:

1.  The island hasn't had a Warden for a hell of a long time, BUT with wizard lifespans being what they are, it could simply be a "we will get to it eventually" thing. 

2.  The job (or possibly Mantle) of being the Warden has very specific duties...and at least one perk:  You get to be a Bond-villainesque shadowy character with his own island.  I have a hard time believing that wouldn't appeal to Harry somewhat. 

3.  There will be eventually a Braveheart reference with Harry saying "I told you, its MY island."

4.  It is easy to see how the Council could extend the Warden idea to the Warden(s) a la kazimmoinuddin's post.  Perhaps the Warden of DR had his own SWAT team to hunt down and imprison certain beings.  (Let's all try to imagine how, if skinwalkers are in minimum security, how hardcore someone was to imprison the things in the lower levels.)

5.  I like the idea of an "original cloak and sword", something Nuccio's swords were based off of perhaps.  Maybe Harry finds them.  Let's hope it's a rapier or some other type of fencing steel, Harry doesn't seem the broadsword type.

6.  Perhaps, if the poster with the multiple Warden of DR theory is correct, Alfred is referring to the British-inflected voice guy Harry found in a crystal. 
The world is a fine place, and worth fighting for.

I agree with the second part.

Offline kazimmoinuddin

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Re: Current DR wardens
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2016, 11:51:10 PM »
I just keep on imagining the warden and his gang of wizards acting sort of like the ghostbusters. Trapping the entities, then binding them into the well. Sort of like ghost traps and ecto containment.
k moinuddin

Offline finnmckool

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Re: Current DR wardens
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2016, 11:59:27 PM »
Concur. The Wardens are the legacy of THE Warden. Just like the Venatorii Umbrorum are the legacy of the actual Hunters of the Oblivion wars. DR only knows of THE WARDEN. It is odd that the security force of the Council is Warden, which is someone who watches over prisoners.

Sibelis

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Re: Current DR wardens
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2016, 12:17:26 AM »
Knowing that one warden became many, and their original job, to me at least seems the same, to me their is little difference between what a warlock becomes and the things in the well, heck for all we know the things in the well find resonance with the actions of those warlocks and rach out through said connection to influence and try to control or meld with(which would transfer consiuosness not necassarly raw power, though an increased flow seems likely) until they have replaced enough of them that they genuinely believe themselves to be said creature, at which point, perhaps they are?
What I wonder at from that one warden, is the precise significance of the grey cloak, as it has been pointed out as a specific in woj. I have more than a few ideas of course, but would like some neutral feedback.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Current DR wardens
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2016, 12:26:59 AM »
What I wonder at from that one warden, is the precise significance of the grey cloak, as it has been pointed out as a specific in woj. I have more than a few ideas of course, but would like some neutral feedback.
Seems likely that it was simple rather than complicated.  Black cloaks seems to sinister, but white cloaks are both pretentious and bad camouflage.  Other colors might be mistaken for house colors back in yesteryear.  Practically speaking, gray is unnoticeable, unassuming, and easy to produce without much fading.

Sibelis

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Re: Current DR wardens
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2016, 12:34:07 AM »
Seems likely that it was simple rather than complicated.  Black cloaks seems to sinister, but white cloaks are both pretentious and bad camouflage.  Other colors might be mistaken for house colors back in yesteryear.  Practically speaking, gray is unnoticeable, unassuming, and easy to produce without much fading.
then why apply any significance to it?

Quote
[Quote from: Someday on April 08, 2009, 06:20:37 AM]
I wonder if it's coincidence that a warden's cloak is grey.

:)

Jim[/quote]
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 12:38:10 AM by Sibelis »

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Current DR wardens
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2016, 01:12:07 AM »
then why apply any significance to it?

:)

Jim
I'm not really seeing the significance to his response.  Was there any more context to the original comment?

Sibelis

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Re: Current DR wardens
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2016, 01:43:40 AM »
I'm not really seeing the significance to his response.  Was there any more context to the original comment?
more or less,

Quote
Quote from: jtaylor on April 08, 2009, 05:26:26 AM
First off: the Headaches. I don't think  they are a sign of someone mucking around with Harry's head, I think it is a sign of him healing. Harry suffered a great deal of brain damage when Lash burned herself out in White Knight. I think the headaches are a sign of him repairing that damage with his ultra slow regeneration factor.

I agree that with Mouse around I don't see anyone messing with Harry's head.  If Mouse reacted the way he did to Molly in this book, no one is getting to Harry while he's around.  Headaches as a sign of healing make more sense than the other theories I've read or come up with.  Of course, that healing would be set back with the new bumps on his head (big enough to knock a hat off!  ouch).

.

I was thinking that LTW's adamant commitment to sacrificing one for the good of all was a mind plant from Peabody.  Granted, there is evidence that LTW would already be disposed to this position and it seemed that the old guard could not be bent against their own grain even with the aid of the ink.  But Peabody would have wanted Morgan (or Luccio--but somebody!) to take the fall ASAP in order to avoid a protracted investigation that might have turned up evidence against the BC (as Harry's did).  We saw Peabody in private conversation with LTW while signing paperwork during the investigation.  I'm not sure LTW would have been so adamantly committed to that course of action without Peabody.

....On a different note, I thought the conversation about doing necessary things even when they weren't the right things parallelled many of Harry's own former decisions but on a grander more political stage.  Sometimes you have to do what's necessary instead of what's right.  Harry's done it (e.g. tyrano-Sue).  Now he's "growing up" and realizing that politics is based upon doing what's necessary.

The whole series revolves around questions of grey.  Most of the grey conversations have involved personal decisions, ethics, morality, etc. and mostly in the area of magic.  Personal decisions are always easier to make than political ones.  Now the conversation itself has expanded to politics.  If politics isn't a grey area, I don't know what is.  I liked the discussion about Maggie's "crazy" ideas of justice which sound appealing until Luccio starts to explore the hidden consequences. 

I think this will be a fulcrum point for Harry's own growth.  We saw him continue to base most of his decisions in TC on "what is right" rather than what is convenient (and when is necessity really just another name for convenience?).  Giving up Morgan, even with his backup plan in place, was a gamble and ultimately was based on "what was believed to be necessary".  I think we'll see more of this in the following books as Jim explores the grey.

I hope Jim continues to draw out the complexities on both sides.  I mean, part of what makes the White Council weak is the fact that it doesn't seem to care at all about justice (or right), just necessity.  I understand Luccio's points about those with power not being able to always follow the path of justice but when politics is only a matter of economic calculation w/o concern for justice then it loses its moral weight and people naturally rebel like Harry and Elaine did (though in different ways).  I just hope Jim continues to explore the complexities without offering an (over-)simplified solution which would (of necessity!) be really lame.

I wonder if it's coincidence that a warden's cloak is grey.
i just see something about the grey compared to how they use their magic, cloaked by their reasons for doing so... Really makes them the grey wardens... But compared to the warden singular the issue seems... Different, or maybe just more? Besides actually.... Uhh Brain fart on my own question, the warden is grey because in order to do his job he actually must violate the law concerning dominating a being through its name.... Mmm?

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Current DR wardens
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2016, 01:56:02 AM »
more or less,
i just see something about the grey compared to how they use their magic, cloaked by their reasons for doing so... Really makes them the grey wardens... But compared to the warden singular the issue seems... Different, or maybe just more? Besides actually.... Uhh Brain fart on my own question, the warden is grey because in order to do his job he actually must violate the law concerning dominating a being through its name.... Mmm?
Maybe.  I just don't see a deeper meaning or association with it in-universe.  While their moral ambiguity makes a good reason for JB to make their cloaks gray, I don't think in-universe they would select that color for that reason. 

Offline Krusatta

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Re: Current DR wardens
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2016, 01:34:04 PM »
Seems likely that it was simple rather than complicated.  Black cloaks seems to sinister, but white cloaks are both pretentious and bad camouflage.  Other colors might be mistaken for house colors back in yesteryear.  Practically speaking, gray is unnoticeable, unassuming, and easy to produce without much fading.

If you turn this around, then the grey cloak becomes significant because of who is wearing it.  Not because it is a grey cloak.  As an example, the career field I served in while in the military wears a scarlet beret.  It is recognizable and significant because of who is wearing it, not because it's a bright red hat. 

To use a more extreme example, the swastika is a Sanskrit symbol meaning "lucky or auspicious".  But what do you actually think of first when you see one?  (Yes, it fits neatly that the Nazi Wehrmacht typically wore grey. Thank you.)

The world is a fine place, and worth fighting for.

I agree with the second part.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Current DR wardens
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2016, 03:13:45 PM »
If you turn this around, then the grey cloak becomes significant because of who is wearing it.  Not because it is a grey cloak.  As an example, the career field I served in while in the military wears a scarlet beret.  It is recognizable and significant because of who is wearing it, not because it's a bright red hat. 

To use a more extreme example, the swastika is a Sanskrit symbol meaning "lucky or auspicious".  But what do you actually think of first when you see one?  (Yes, it fits neatly that the Nazi Wehrmacht typically wore grey. Thank you.)
True.  In-universe a gray cloak became a symbol, but I'm not sure that was the intent.  When we think about wizards wearing cloaks 1,600 years ago, it doesn't seem significant.  I'm sure plenty of people had gray cloaks.  Until cloaks went out of fashion, or the wardens made a name for themselves, it still wouldn't be that notable.

Offline dspringer1

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Re: Current DR wardens
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2016, 11:03:20 PM »
I agree with the others.  I am not sure there is any mystical or deep significance to the cloak and the sword wardens wear.   I suspect the others are right that the original cloaks were grey to match demonreach (or maybe demonreach is gray to match the cloaks - who knows). 

The sword as a distinctive warden identifier seems to be a Luccio invention. She was able to create these really useful swords - so useful that eventually every warden got one.   Again - a tradition that just started and went on long enough that it became part of the image of the Wardens.   

LOTS of things we do today probably started out as rather arbitrary decisions that everybody copied until it became the WAY IT IS DONE.  And often times these arbitrary decisions were not the best decisions long term, but they still stuck.   Easy example is the keyboard for typewriters/computers.  Original design spaced out the commonly used keys to minimize the chance for the levers to stick.  That reason is long gone, but the design is still everywhere.   I see grey cloaks and swords as falling into that category.   

Offline kazimmoinuddin

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Re: Current DR wardens
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2016, 01:39:32 AM »
Why is everyone convince that Luccio invented the swords? Sure she is the only one able to make them, but that might just be a matter of skill.
These swords not only acted as foci, they allowed the swords act directly against magic, blocking, cutting, parrying, and other sword moves. Since the first law limits what warden can use in a battle, these swords give a great advantage in fighting other magic users while keeping yo the laws. Without these swords, dealing with magic users will be far more complicated, so they are key to warden duties. Such an advantage would explain how the council maintained its control over wizards.
I wonder if Harry could Mccoys warden sword.
k moinuddin

Offline peregrine

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Re: Current DR wardens
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2016, 02:21:13 AM »
As an example, the career field I served in while in the military wears a scarlet beret.  It is recognizable and significant because of who is wearing it, not because it's a bright red hat. 
Combat Controller?

Offline Krusatta

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Re: Current DR wardens
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2016, 02:42:43 AM »
Combat Controller?

No.  Amtrak. 

Sorry, can't help myself.  Yes, I was stupid enough to try out in BMT and then dumb enough to pass Indoc, the rest was inertia.  Are you AF, also? 
« Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 02:44:21 AM by Krusatta »
The world is a fine place, and worth fighting for.

I agree with the second part.