Author Topic: Should I feel offended?  (Read 5486 times)

Offline Dina

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Re: Should I feel offended?
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2015, 07:44:47 PM »
wyltok, Tsunami, thank you. Your posts have been very interesting and I appreciate that. Your insight about the reasons to keep reading are more or less the sane I thought, wyltok

Rygar, the Aurorans themselves that are depicted are military, so hubby and I don't care for them. The problem is that speaking of the government as unefficient and corrupted is spreading the stereotype of the Latino government (think the stereotype of the tropical country dictator). That is precisely what incensed my husband.
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Offline Mith

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Re: Should I feel offended?
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2015, 07:53:54 PM »
It could also be a take on historic Spanish economic inefficency with regards to how the silver mines of the New World inflated the Spanish economy in the 1600s.

Basically, I am looking at this as a basis for the European Spaniards, and not in connection with Latin America.  But then again, I do not have any roots in Latin America to notice that potential point of view.
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Offline Rygar

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Re: Should I feel offended?
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2015, 08:05:25 PM »
wyltok, Tsunami, thank you. Your posts have been very interesting and I appreciate that. Your insight about the reasons to keep reading are more or less the sane I thought, wyltok

Rygar, the Aurorans themselves that are depicted are military, so hubby and I don't care for them. The problem is that speaking of the government as unefficient and corrupted is spreading the stereotype of the Latino government (think the stereotype of the tropical country dictator). That is precisely what incensed my husband.

Yeah, and Spire Aurora doesn't (presumably) have the history of repeated foreign backed coups either.  I could see how that could upset someone. 
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 09:29:01 PM by Rygar »

Offline Dina

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Re: Should I feel offended?
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2015, 08:56:59 PM »
LOL, yes.
Missing you, Md 

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Offline Quantus

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Re: Should I feel offended?
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2015, 09:21:18 PM »
Itasca is a county from the state I lived in. I think it was a native American word
If it's the town in Illinois, it was named for the Lake in Minnesota, which in turn was it was a combination of the latin word for Truth and Head.

Quote
"The Ojibwe name for "Lake Itasca" was Omashkoozo-zaaga'igan (Elk Lake);[1] this was changed by Henry Schoolcraft to "Itasca", coined from a combination of the Latin words veritas ("truth") and caput ("head"),[2][3] though it is sometimes misinterpreted as "true head." It is one of several examples of pseudo-Indian place names created by Schoolcraft."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Itasca

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Offline Tarion

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Re: Should I feel offended?
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2015, 09:39:56 AM »
It could also be a take on historic Spanish economic inefficency with regards to how the silver mines of the New World inflated the Spanish economy in the 1600s.

Basically, I am looking at this as a basis for the European Spaniards, and not in connection with Latin America.  But then again, I do not have any roots in Latin America to notice that potential point of view.
Yeah, I think you've really got to stretch to tie it into Latin America.  I mean, I get why people from that part of the world would do that, but I think that's something that the readers are bringing to the book, rather than something already there. 

Spain's economic troubles and it's imperialism aren't really controversial.  Reading it, it felt like fairly clear parallels with Phillip II, who faced multiple state bankruptcies (Even with rampant imperialism), sent the Spanish Armada against England, and had notable corruption - He sold off state roles to people with money, but without talent. 

Offline Quantus

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Re: Should I feel offended?
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2015, 12:21:35 PM »
Setting aside the question of cultural links to RL nations, I think there are equitable derogatory statements from and about both sides int he stories, and I expect we'll get some for Olympia in the next book as well.  The Albion folks arent presented as any more noble or fair-minded than the Aurorans, as I read it.  The soldiers had the soldiers mindset of hard actions during war, but so did Grimm and Co.  The Aurorans were
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Offline Second Aristh

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Re: Should I feel offended?
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2015, 01:44:02 PM »
Setting aside the question of cultural links to RL nations, I think there are equitable derogatory statements from and about both sides int he stories, and I expect we'll get some for Olympia in the next book as well.  The Albion folks arent presented as any more noble or fair-minded than the Aurorans, as I read it.  The soldiers had the soldiers mindset of hard actions during war, but so did Grimm and Co.  The Aurorans were
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And the end
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I think the Spirearch's first instinct on
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does a good deal to balance the scales against which Spire is more honorable.  They both have their weaknesses in individuals and in reputations.
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Offline Dina

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Re: Should I feel offended?
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2015, 02:49:52 PM »
I was not talking about the real actions of the characters but about their prejudices, what they think about the others.

Yeah, I think you've really got to stretch to tie it into Latin America.  I mean, I get why people from that part of the world would do that, but I think that's something that the readers are bringing to the book, rather than something already there. 

Spain's economic troubles and it's imperialism aren't really controversial.  Reading it, it felt like fairly clear parallels with Phillip II, who faced multiple state bankruptcies (Even with rampant imperialism), sent the Spanish Armada against England, and had notable corruption - He sold off state roles to people with money, but without talent. 

Well, if you offend Spaniards you offend Latin America because many of us have Spanish ancestors. My grandma was from Spain, for instance. So no "very distant relatives" but concrete people we love are from Spain.

Well yes, the historical Spain had those problems. When you extend it to the future or other planets...prejudice.
Missing you, Md 

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Offline mikejramsey

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Re: Should I feel offended?
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2015, 10:04:07 PM »
Pirates have to fight somebody.  Given the real history, you had French pirates operating out of New Orleans who attacked British shipping but not US shipping.  Who do you think supplied the cannons that Andrew Jackson used to defeat the British in the war 1812?

English privateers were given a letter of marque and reprisal authorizing them to become commerce raiders.  Spain was richer than England.  At the time of queen Elizabeth the first of England, Spanish commerce raiders would have had slim pickings.  :-)

I think your husband is reading into the story more than Jim Butcher has written.  If it helps, think of the Aurorans as French.

Besides, the divisions between the spires will disappear when they have to face the common enemy.

Offline Dina

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Re: Should I feel offended?
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2015, 11:41:13 PM »
They are not French. They have Spanish names, including names of people we know.
As I said in another thread, there was a French name (besides Bayard) but I don't remember who, so I don't know where he was from. Perhaps a vermi...I forgot the right name of those people.

Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)

Offline Tsunami

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Re: Should I feel offended?
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2015, 02:35:19 PM »
Maybe Butcher should start putting the usual disclaimer into his books...   ::)
All characters appearing in this work are fictitious. Any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental.
In this case:
"All nation-like constructs (i.e. "Spires") are fictitious. Any resemblance to real nations, modern or historical, is purely coincidental."  ;D

I've read so many versions of the "evil Germany" story. Some written well, some written crappy. None offended me, because they were obviously  fictious.
Ok, maybe the crappy ones offended... my taste in literature :P

Take the story and the world for what it is, a story. You will always be able to find something that could be taken as offensive to someone.
They eat meat! Offensive to Vegetarians.
They have talking cats! Offensive to dog lovers.
They have an aristocracy! Offensive to egalitarians.

I am overweight, 95% of overweight people in literature and other media are made out to be jokes, and that includes Butchers work.
Do i let that offend me personally? No.

Just let the story be a story, it's not the real world.

Sorry for the rant.
I will leave you to it.
Have a nice day :-)

Offline namkcas

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Re: Should I feel offended?
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2015, 02:54:04 PM »
Actually, I don't think that they were meant to be fictionalized.  But if you look at the way people are portrayed the Auroran's are honorable and highly skilled.  The actual "bad" people in the story are from Albion.

Offline Quantus

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Re: Should I feel offended?
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2015, 02:58:31 PM »
To the OP, has this view changed at all once you and/or your husband have completed the novel, and so reached the parts that highlight the honorable nature of the Aurorans?
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Offline Dina

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Re: Should I feel offended?
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2015, 03:25:21 PM »
I had not been offended, only he was. And he has not finished it yet.
That said, I don't think that changes. As I said, the problem is not the actual characters, but the stereotype about the government.
And again, this is not a history book, it is probably a book about the future. So because there was a bad government all future governments would be bad?

namkas, everybody is bad. I don't think there is good people in the book. Perhaps brother Vincent
Missing you, Md 

There are many horrible sights in the multiverse. Somehow, though, to a soul attuned to the subtle rhythms of a library, there are few worse sights than a hole where a book ought to be. Someone has stolen a book (Terry Pratchett)