Comments thread for "The Laws of Magic: Part 8 of 8"

[Torvaldr]

Yup. It was kind of like an old argument that cropped up in  my old D&D game. If a wizard threw a lightning bolt at a creature that was resistant to magic, the creature could use that defense against it. If on the other hand a druid used his spell Call Lightning, it could not use its resistance. The difference? The wizard was creating electricity magically. The druid was calling natural electricity. The same could be said of Harry using magical fire as in FUEGO, and someone else using magic to cause a gas main to blow. The Outsider may be able to shrug off the magical fire, but still take damage from the flames and explosion caused by burning gas.

[rgm0005]

That's possible, but, until I get more information, I'm going to opperate under assumption that all Outsiders are BAMF's, and won't be taken down that easily. Because, frankly, Harry's not that lucky.

[Torvaldr]

Oh I do not expect that it would be easy even if it did work that way. Look at it like this. Magical fire tingles and annoys. Real fire hurts. That doesn't mean it kills or injures, or incapacitates all at once. Only that it does have some affect. If you can understand Hero games systems, try something like this.

75% resistant damage reduction versus magical based attacks
25% to 50% resistant damage reduction versus natural based attacks

Notice that they always get SOME kind of damage reduction, just not as much against something natural. Remember they are not from our plane of existence, they are from "Outside", so maybe real natural forces could have some affect.

[rgm0005]

Ah, I understand. However, since they come from the Outside, it's also possible that normal things wouldn't work at all. I hope we learn something in 'Small Favor'.

[The Last Bean]

Almost seems to me that (on the logic that they are "outside" and therefore completely unrelated to the laws of reality we are used to) pure magic would be the ONLY thing that would be effective against them. "Fuego" should fail to harm them because it's working on the logic that fire is hot and burns things, as would real fire, which IS hot and burns things. Outsiders aren't things though. They're something totally different. They don't obey the rules of our reality, and the only other thing in the Dresdenverse that doesn't follow the rules is magic.

If I was to try and come up with something to hurt a being that doesn't conform to our laws, I would probably just try to make it not be, attack it on the fundamental level of existence, which is something you can only really do with magic. I guess in WoD:Mage terms we'd be talking about Prime, or the Negative Energy spells from DnD. Something that just unmakes something rather than trying to harm it and stop it from functioning.

[Lord Nedd]

Almost seems to me that (on the logic that they are "outside" and therefore completely unrelated to the laws of reality we are used to) pure magic would be the ONLY thing that would be effective against them. "Fuego" should fail to harm them because it's working on the logic that fire is hot and burns things, as would real fire, which IS hot and burns things. Outsiders aren't things though. They're something totally different. They don't obey the rules of our reality, and the only other thing in the Dresdenverse that doesn't follow the rules is magic.

If I was to try and come up with something to hurt a being that doesn't conform to our laws, I would probably just try to make it not be, attack it on the fundamental level of existence, which is something you can only really do with magic. I guess in WoD:Mage terms we'd be talking about Prime, or the Negative Energy spells from DnD. Something that just unmakes something rather than trying to harm it and stop it from functioning.

There are two different things that are classified by the Outside.  Things like Mordite, which are entirely orthogonal to our universe, hence, Outside.  Then there are those creatures which have been banished Outside, such as the creatures such as Outsiders, those servants of the Lovecraftian greater creatures.  The Outsiders had previously on lived on Earth and were worshiped.  They have been pushed back to the Outside for the benefit of Man by wizardry.

-LN

[Quantus]

Im thinking that the injunction on even researching the Outer Gates works much the same way as the Law against necromancy.  While you can find technicalities to do a bit and still fall within the laws (yay Sue), generally speaking going near the stuff is bad enough, cause the whole practice is considered vile.  The outer gates are just a worse version.  Its like how concealed weapons are illegal (without a permit, but in thins case there is only the one permit around), even if you dont shoot anyone with them.  Or even better, its like working with biological weapons:  sure making new vaccines is all well and good, noble and such, but the research requires you to make new and potentially dangerous viruses (virii?) which you dont want just anyone to be playing with. 

That being said you still run into the same problem Harry saw during DB with mind control:  nobody does it so nobody knows how to teach proper defenses against it.  The ward that stopped (or at least slowed) the Outsiders in DB was something done by the man said to be the most powerful wizard on earth (who also specializes in wards and defensive magic) and the man who is probably the actual most powerful wizard on earth (and a specialist in Outsiders and the Outer Gates).  I doubt anyone else could have done it without harry's outsider connection and even he would have needed a lot more power and class to pull it off (guess he needs to stop collecting bottle caps or something  )


On the Blackstaff as an artifact all its own,  Harry once mentions that McCoy's staff came from the same grove in th Ozarks that Harry's did.  Does that mean he's just wrong, or does Eb simply have two staffs (staves?).  I dont see any reason why he couldn't , I had just always imagined the staff as more personal and...i dunno...attuned?... than that.

And you can only have 13 people in a circle.

Says who?

[iago]

Says who?

Harry Dresden, when he talks about the number 13 in one of the earliest books.

[Quantus]

Ah, found it in SF (I really need to read the early books more, I tend to re-read the "save the world several years in a row" books more)

So if you can only use thirteen in a circle, does that mean there are only 13 members of Cowl's "Circle"?  That would be encouraging, from a perspective of simple enemy manpower.  And I think we can safely assume that Cowl is pretty close to the top of their power food chain, otherwise he wouldn't have been to one chosen to go after Godhood in DB.


Brings up another point though:

"Thirteen," I corrected her. "You can never use more than thirteen. But I don't think that's very likely. It's a bitch to do. Everyone in the circle has to be committed to the spell, have no doubts, no reservations. And they have to trust one another implicitly. You don't see that kind of thing from your average gang of killers. It just isn't something that's going to happen, outside of some kind of fanaticism. A cult or political organization."

Do you think members of the BC would be able to muster that kind of trust? 

[WyldCard4]

Ah, found it in SF (I really need to read the early books more, I tend to re-read the "save the world several years in a row" books more)

So if you can only use thirteen in a circle, does that mean there are only 13 members of Cowl's "Circle"?  That would be encouraging, from a perspective of simple enemy manpower.  And I think we can safely assume that Cowl is pretty close to the top of their power food chain, otherwise he wouldn't have been to one chosen to go after Godhood in DB.


Brings up another point though:
Do you think members of the BC would be able to muster that kind of trust? 

But what if the reason he went after power was because he needed more of it, he could have been the weekest of them who they sent on a mission with a low chance of success.

I see the Outsiders as either aliens or animal versions of Nevernever being as I outlined here.

The Animalistic Theory: they are from the Nevernever of animals whose thoughts and dreams give them shape as ours do the Fay and the rest of the Nevernever.

And The Alienist Theory: that they are from the Nevernever of an alien race, this is not impossible as Jim Butcher has already involved true aliens in the Codex Alera books.

[newtinmpls]

"Thing is there obviously IS a way to defend yourself. After all the Merlin and the Gatekeeper raised a ward that not only stopped Outsiders. It stopped a LOT of them and a Red Court Army as well. It may be that it is not possible for your average wizard to raise that kind of ward, but again obviously there is some magic that works."

I think this is where we get in to potential refinements, specializations and FATE points on aspects. If the PC starts with 5-7 aspects, and no refinement, by the time you get to the level of Merlin or Blackstaff, you are talking about whipping out spells with 20+ shifts as a matter of course. I don't expect my campaign to ever get to the PC's having that level of power.

"But I can also see where it could be one of those slippery slope things. Kind of like the way Saruman became corrupted in the LOtR by researching ring lore. But if there are wards that will work, I think it behooves the Senior Council to let folks know what they are."

I like this idea. I also see "outsiders" as vaguely lovecraftian as in "if you can see them, they can see you" (and your lifespan is Dramatically Shortened), with some Tentacle Hentai thrown in just for the eeww factor.

[Drachasor]

Woah, newtinmpls, you just broke the 5th law!

[Bruce Coulson]

The Law against Outside is the only one that forbids even doing research on the matter.  There's nothing that forbids a wizard from researching methods of controlling minds or raising the dead, as long as they don't actuallly use those spells.  (Although if discovered, there probably would be a LOT of questions being asked.)

So, going with my theory that the Laws are rule-of-thumb statements of metaphysical reality, there must be something about even asking questions that is inherently dangerous.  Perhaps asking questions leads to the arrogance that you could successful summon and control an Outsider safely.  Perhaps doing the research opens those cracks in the Doors ever so slightly, and Things get through. Or, maybe, if you do enough research, your mind is open to contact from Outside...

[kihon]

I like the last idea the best.  If you do enough research, your mind is opened just enough, a crack in the door -- enough for them to make contact.  After that...

[devonapple]

Perhaps asking questions leads to the arrogance that you could successful summon and control an Outsider safely.  Perhaps doing the research opens those cracks in the Doors ever so slightly, and Things get through. Or, maybe, if you do enough research, your mind is open to contact from Outside...

"Don't wrack your memory. Don't blaze the trail.
Don't pine for primeval jungles. Don't pierce the veil.
Don't look for answers years down the road.
Don’t copy down the glyphs that your visions showed."

"Some Things Man Was Not Meant To Know" - The Darkest of the Hillside Thickets