Comments thread for "The Laws of Magic: Part 8 of 8"

[Torvaldr]

"But Morgan, I'm not seeking knowledge from beyond the outer gates.  All the knowledge I'm seeking is from Earth.  It might be knowledge *about* the outer gates, but there's a big difference there.  Really.  It's just like there's a big difference between reanimating a dinosaur and reanimating a human."

In my case the argument is, "I am not researching how to summon them. I am researching ways to defend myself and send them back when someone else summons them. Please excuse me for wanting to live through an encounter with one of them."

[Lord Nedd]

Okay, then can I have their emergency contact information so they can come save me when an Outsider shows up? 

Makes me glad that in RPGs the general rule of thumb is that the rules are Guidelines and not carved in stone.

Please be aware though that I am not arguing that a raw rank apprentice should be involved in this kind of study. I can see the Merlin and Senior Council believing that only someone who is already very well grounded and stable, with decent experience, should be involved in this kind of research. But if they are going to ban all research then I sincerely hope that they are making information available on what defenses do work.

That aforementioned well grounded and stable person has already been defined.  He was nice enough to stick up for Harry.  He trained him too, interspersing the training with wetwork for the Council.



The point is that we know at least two people who have a fair amount of knowledge about the Outsiders, being the Gatekeeper and the Blackstaff (incidentally, it wasn't lost on me that both of these folks are titled wizards, fully trusted by the Senior Council to deal with the most extraordinary menaces...)  It is likely that both have the purview of keeping an ear and eye open in such research.  They would be folks of sound character and wisdom who would konw when to march forward and when to stop.  When enough information is enough and what knowledge is actionable and which isn't.

It is painfully obvious that Merlin doesn't keep Harry in his confidence.  Heaven's sake, Eb was honest and forthright with Harry, but only up to a degree.  Knowledge is always power.  Power in untrained, immature and emotive hands is freakin' dangerous.  Hence, Harry has hard rules given to him.

Regarding RPGs, the GM or Storyteller is the one who determines which rules are guidelines and which are set in stop.  If they say that the earth is in a binary system, hooray for "our two Suns".  If you are running the game, make it the way that you will maximize your enjoyment as well as your players.  If you are player, be vocal about what your interests are, but be ready to comprimise, as you are not the Storyteller or GM, who has to do that balancing act.  No GM in their right mind is going to have Outsiders appear without some tools given to help defeat them.  It wouldn't be fun for anyone but perhaps the GM. 

(Rule 0:  GM is always right.  Rule 1:  If the players aren't having fun, then the GM has to adapt.)

-LN

[Torvaldr]

Yup, hence my note about the rules are guidelines. But it is the GM who decides where the lines get drawn. It is the mark of a good GM to be able to improvise on the fly. Lord knows how many times I had to add monsters, subtract monsters, fudge a die roll, allow on thing, disallow another. The trick is knowing where you want the story to end up, and be able to stear the players without them knowing they have been steared.

I miss playing any RPG. I haven't had a group to play with in several years.

[godcomplex385]

I believe that even if it is possible to study outsider and the outside without being tainted in anyway the council would still disallow it. Torvaldr the council has never made a point of being fair or kind or logical, they are all fear driven dictators.

[harleshade]

I have to agree there. Harry is the only wizard that seems to be willing to skirt the rules, and that is because he sees them as a bunch of Holier-than-thou pricks. And with the exception of a few, they are. Most of the higher up seem to want nothing more than to make sure that no one below them can un seat them in a power struggle that in reality will never happen. I can see, some of the rules as nessicary to keep the peace, buit the punishment delt out for most of the crimes are harsh without a chance for a fair trial. And the last law Is one of those ones that would be a unfair trial, it is so vague that the merlin can saw what ever he wants and it would have to stick.

[Mitchell]

I think this quote from the Law's page explains it quite well:

"As a rule of thumb, the Council sees it as a privilege allowed its own members, but off-limits for the rest of the supernatural practitioners out there. So even though it isn't directly in violation of the Seventh Law (or any other), the Wardens get real antsy about amateurs messing around with summoning. Even non-Outsider demons are dangerous in their own right.

Think of this as licensing on explosive compounds. If you know what you're doing, have a legitimate reason for their use (construction, demolition, mining, etc)—and you know how to be cautious, you can get them, even if you aren't someone military, and you'll have official (if occasionally supervised) approval to use them. If, on the other hand, you're just some guy who likes storing a few kilos of plastique in his garage, the authorities are not at all amused to find out about you."

[AcornArmy]

That refers only to the summoning of regular demons, though, not Outsiders. Outsiders are forbidden entirely, to everyone except the Blackstaff-- and possibly, I suppose, the Gatekeeper.

It may be that research into the nature of the Outsiders, where they come from and what they can do, would lead all but the most cautious of wizards to believe that Outsiders could be dealt with safely. Wizards might feel that with the proper precautions the dangers are minimal, and the risks would be well worth the possible gains. It may be that the ultimate price and danger of dealing with Outsiders only becomes apparent later, years down the road, and by then it's too late to stop them without engaging in a full-scale war.

This could easily be how the Circle got started, for that matter. Cowl or some other wizard looked into knowledge and power from beyond the Outer Gates, and they found it, along with what seemed to be perfectly controllable risks.

[rgm0005]

I'm with Acornarmy on this one. I can also understand the wardens. The outsiders seem to be magical 'nukes'. I wouldn't want anyone to know how to get them, simple because, sooner or later, some punk will use one. And the only way to fight nukes, is with nukes. And, eventually, the outsiders will be able to come to this side at any time.

Kincaid said it best. Thus kaboom, thus death.

And as for defending yourself, there doesn't seem to be away. They are immune to most magic, and I doubt that they can be taken down with normal weapons.

After all, do you think Harry's that lucky. Surviving using only one well aimed bullet?

I didn't think so.

[Torvaldr]

Thing is there obviously IS a way to defend yourself. After all the Merlin and the Gatekeeper raised a ward that not only stopped Outsiders. It stopped a LOT of them and a Red Court Army as well. It may be that it is not possible for your average wizard to raise that kind of ward, but again obviously there is some magic that works. But I can also see where it could be one of those slippery slope things. Kind of like the way Saruman became corrupted in the LOtR by researching ring lore. But if there are wards that will work, I think it behooves the Senior Council to let folks know what they are.

[rgm0005]

No, it didn't 'work' against them. It just gave the Council time to run away with their lives.

[Torvaldr]

That is perfectly valid, time to get away. But I will have to go back and look at it again. I thought it was more effective than that. But even so, a ward strong enough to slow an Outsider down is good enough. That is better than nothing at all.

[rgm0005]

Yeah, but it took the Gatekeeper and the Merlin. That's about the same thing as having a couple nukes. And they only escaped. I figure I would take the whole White Council to do what they did. And you can only have 13 people in a circle.

[Torvaldr]

Right, but again they were dealing with a lot of Outsiders and Red Court Vamps. If you were only dealing with one Outsider it may not take as many.

[rgm0005]

Maybe, but, based on what we know, I'm going to go ahead and say that we'd lose against Outsiders, unless you have serious back up of the supernatural variaty. Like Mab. In which case, while you survive the Outside, your still going to be screwed. Up the ass. With a crowbar.

[Lord Nedd]

Right, but again they were dealing with a lot of Outsiders and Red Court Vamps. If you were only dealing with one Outsider it may not take as many.

The biggest problem I have with Outsiders is that they are Fae tough, and highly! resistant to Magic.  You will likely have to use Magic in a way that is entirely indirect, otherwise they will just shunt the effect and pound you 12 inches shorter with one swipe of a meaty tentacle.

Remember how Harry felt with he first came up against the Troll in a bowler in SK?  He just shrugged off a big blast from the wand, once he was ready for it.  Imagine folks who are *always* ready for it.

It isn't clear the number of Outsiders that nearly routed the White Council, except they are more than 1.  Perhaps there were 13.  Perhaps there were 3.  Perhaps there were 1000s.  It isn't very clear on this issue.

The number is important and I wish we had more info on the subject.

-LN