Author Topic: Fictional Econimics  (Read 6771 times)

Offline Quantus

  • Special Collections Division
  • Needs A Life
  • ****
  • Posts: 25216
  • He Who Lurks Around
    • View Profile
Fictional Econimics
« on: July 25, 2015, 05:25:27 PM »
I am an engineer.  Accounting and economics might as well be Voodoo to me.  But I need help in that realm, preferably using small words :P

I have a fictional setting.  It's a high-fantasy place, where magic is common in everyday life; there are some cultural divergences but for the most part the magical development of the time is roughly equivalent to early-20th century science, though the caste gap is pretty large.  The society heavy into families and bloodlines, and is organized around various strata of Noble Houses that are the landowners, built around a framework of 7 Guilds that serve various roles that I typically associate with government and/or church.  For example the Seer's are the essentially the priesthood (abstract astrology more than pantheistic deities), but are also the record keepers and so contracts and deeds and other bureaucratic matters are in their purview.  Ive modeled it somewhat after the Pern Novel's i read as a kid, with the Holder landowners and then Crafthalls, if that gives you a point of reference. 

Now my thought is that the common denomination of the Currency would not be an object like coinage or rare metals, rather they would trade Elemental Energies, which would be distilled/"minted" by the Elementalist Guild (and possibly others).  So there would be four types or energy, each with a standardized measurement of energy and a regulated exchange rate, Dollar&penny would be Flame&Spark, Splash&Drop, etc (still working on those) and each energy unit would have a specific definition of it's actual usefulness.  Kind of like how a Calorie is defined in terms of it's ability to raise a set amount of water a single degree, which would work for Fire, Earth might be the amount of energy needed to raise X Stones a certain distance (ie potential gravitational energy). 


What I dont know is how much regulation would be necessary?  Would counter-fitting be an issue, or would it not matter because the energy has inherent value rather than symbolic.  I mean, if we used Electricity as a currency, it wouldnt matter who generated the voltage and charged your wallet/battery, the Charge exists. 

Thoughts?  I dont know enough about how those sorts of systems to even know where to begin...
<(o)> <(o)>
        / \
      (o o)
   \==-==/


“We’re all imaginary friends to one another."

"An entire life, an entire personality, can be permanently altered by just one sentence." -An Accidental Villain

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
Re: Fictional Econimics
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2015, 06:58:34 PM »
Redacted for reasons.  :-X
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 05:26:48 PM by Griffyn612 »

Offline pcpoet

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 831
  • life is a dream
    • View Profile
Re: Fictional Econimics
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2015, 10:44:02 PM »
the thing to remember that value is based on rarity and perceived value. the4 reason that diamonds are valuable are thar rhey are precieed as rar band hard to get the same is true with gold.
I am who I am that's all that I am from my head to my toe that's all that I am.

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
Re: Fictional Econimics
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2015, 12:36:08 AM »
the thing to remember that value is based on rarity and perceived value. the4 reason that diamonds are valuable are thar rhey are precieed as rar band hard to get the same is true with gold.
I agree. Knowing nothing about the world, is seems unlikely that a dog stand worker would sell spiced sausages for magic coinage.  I common coin that can be used by everyone for almost anything would seem to be best.  Guild/Silver/Copper would be simple and easy to understand.  But anything involving magical craftsmanship, from jewellery to spells to weapons to tools, could be paid for in the 'mana' exchange.

Offline OZ

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4129
  • Great and Terrible
    • View Profile
Re: Fictional Econimics
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2015, 03:44:14 AM »
Quote
I mean, if we used Electricity as a currency, it wouldnt matter who generated the voltage and charged your wallet/battery, the Charge exists. 

In a society where the money has actual value (gold, silver, etc.) it is very possible that raw metal would be acceptable. The problem is that unless you are an expert, it might be easy for someone to fool you (gold covered lead for instance). Coinage that has been certified by some authority, usually the government, is considered safe because you know exactly what you're getting. I could see the same thing in a society that trades in elemental energy. Any elemental energy would have value but most people would feel more secure using "coinage" that has been certified by the Guild. Anyone that tried to fake the Guild's certification would call down the wrath of the elementals.
How do you know you have a good book?  It's 3am and you think "Just one more chapter!"

Offline Farmerbob1

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 70
    • View Profile
Re: Fictional Economics
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2015, 09:41:55 AM »
IDEA (you are free to take it and run with it if you like)

If it's a high fantasy world, perhaps have your magical coinage be created not by men at all, but by elementals.  The elementals want things for their coins, appropriate to their type.

This would allow you to create a truly frightening counterfeiting penalty, if the elementals have to refresh the coins periodically (re-minting).  If people make the coins themselves, and the elemental tries to refresh them, the elemental *knows* they didn't make it.  They won't act on only a few here and there.  But they keep *every* counterfeit coin.

That's when the fun starts.  After enough value is lost to any given individual's counterfeiting, the elemental will seek out the counterfeiter and *take* payment.  The greater the counterfeiting crime, the less likely to be lenient.  If you have been counterfeiting flame currency, and don't happen to have a forest on your land, or a lot of shrubbery, you'd best hope you have a lot of firewood, or else he's burning everything in your house.  Perhaps the house itself.  And if he's not satisfied, he'll come back later and do it again.

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
Re: Fictional Econimics
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2015, 11:43:22 PM »
Redacted for reasons.  :-X
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 05:27:05 PM by Griffyn612 »

Offline Farmerbob1

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 70
    • View Profile
Re: Fictional Economics
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2015, 12:53:55 AM »
Heck, with all these ideas floating around, you could probably create a 'Sam Spade, High Fantasy Investment Banker' story, completely based around the currency system!

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
Re: Fictional Economics
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2015, 01:19:54 AM »
Heck, with all these ideas floating around, you could probably create a 'Sam Spade, High Fantasy Investment Banker' story, completely based around the currency system!
Yeah, I've got this character idea that doesn't fit in any of my three worlds I've got developing, but would fit perfectly into a magic/fantasy world.  I kind of want to play in Quantus' world.   ;D

Offline Quantus

  • Special Collections Division
  • Needs A Life
  • ****
  • Posts: 25216
  • He Who Lurks Around
    • View Profile
Re: Fictional Econimics
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2015, 05:17:04 PM »
Wow, Time Warner fails at their job for a day or two and you guys come back with complete monetary systems!  The awesome here knows no bounds.

To answer one comment, yes basically everyone will be using magic "currency" though I dont like the term.  It's more about having a commodity-based money, since they arent "minted" in the traditional sense, but are used up.  Picture common towns as looking something like the old west; any manufactured good like a pocket-watch or fancy kitchen tool would instead be some magical gizmo equivalent.  In the case of the pocket-watch, "modern" clocks for them are enchanted sticks of varying sizes (finger sized for pocket-watch up to building sized Clock-pillars) that glow different colors and shift a line up and down, as a throwback to when all their time measurement was bases on standardized Candles with graduated markings to tick of hours and minutes (as opposed to our round clock faces that are Sun-dial descended).  Fancy ones might have a small magical light dispay (safe), when ancient ones would embed fireworks in the wax, but this is basically a cookoo clock equivalent.  But magic stoves and lanterns and other common household items would be the norm at all levels of society, though of course the high-society will have to display more extravagance. 

What I pictured was that each of the 4 elements had an energy that could be stored in mundane objects (in a straightforward process by nearly anyone), as everyone has what it takes to use basic magic, even if they dont have the talent and/or skills for advanced work.  In terms of value they would each occupy a different order of magnitude of currency, but in a way that would be a physical-law conservation-of-energy sort of exchange, rather than a regulated/floating value.  So it would take so many Sparks (fire denomination, equivalent to a unit measurement of thermal energy) to equal one Stone (Earth denomination) because it take exactly that many units of Fire Magic to generate that single unit of Earth Magic.  Im thinking Fire/Water/Earth would be the Low/Middle/High values; Ill leave Air as a more exotic item, since anyone can imbue Breaths (but they are of miniscule relative value), but it is astronomically more difficult to contain and store permanently, so it's rarely done.  When it is, it's generally considered an extravagant show of wealth, and the pursuit of a way to store Air is like the medieval search for Gold from Lead widely viewed as a would-be Game-Changer for the society since it could be the key to things like weather manipulation and easy sea travel, even the holy grail of Flight-for-the-Masses.

My current concerns about all this are:

1)How does a commodity-based currency work?  I know destroying minted currency devalues it, but what if it was intended to be Used Up from the get-go?  How did it work way back in the day when Salt was a standard of trade?

2)Is it safe to leave it directly tied to the effort of empowering?  It prevents a need for regulated currency, and counterfeiting wouldn't be much of an issue with properly defined and common measuring tools.   But it does establish a direct monetary value for /effort/, which seems like it would have broad implications, as it could take bargaining for wages all but non-existent, and anyone could just sit river-side and churn out money to the limit of the containers they could beg/borrow/steal

3)Should I instead force the standardized currency to be issued by one of the guilds?  It could be a useful story detail for the political interplay of the world, if one of them is in charge of the Currency.  Perhaps anyone can technically empower a bucket of water, but to do it properly requires a larger volume than is practical outside of an organization?   Counter-fitting still wouldnt be too much of an issue since they'd still have an objective value in their energy content. 

4)Should purity of the container be an issue?  It would make sense if pure water held energy more efficiently than a mud-puddle, and I could see different gems holding a different amount.  But I want it to focus on the energy as the Money, and the Gem/Water/whatever physical object being viewed more along the lines of a disposable purse. 

5)What am I not even thinking of, because I dont know enough about how economies function?
<(o)> <(o)>
        / \
      (o o)
   \==-==/


“We’re all imaginary friends to one another."

"An entire life, an entire personality, can be permanently altered by just one sentence." -An Accidental Villain

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
Re: Fictional Econimics
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2015, 09:09:21 PM »
Redacted for reasons.  :-X
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 05:27:19 PM by Griffyn612 »

Offline Farmerbob1

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 70
    • View Profile
Re: Fictional Econimics
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2015, 09:41:42 PM »
  The use of consumables as currency isn't limited to salt.

  Look into how Japan used rice as currency.  They couldn't make coinage work, and kept going back to rice over the centuries.

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
Re: Fictional Econimics
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2015, 11:10:32 PM »
  The use of consumables as currency isn't limited to salt.

  Look into how Japan used rice as currency.  They couldn't make coinage work, and kept going back to rice over the centuries.
The thing is, rice has a direct and obvious value to everyone.  Regardless of social standing, everyone can eat rice.  Farmers can plant rice. 

Salt didn't.  It was like the platinum of its day.  It was highly valued due to its scarcity, but it wasn't the only currency.  Throughout most of history, there was still gold and silver used for regular transactions.

This is an exerpt from Wikipedia.
Quote
It has long been assumed that metals, where available, were favored for use as proto-money over such commodities as cattle, cowry shells, or salt, because metals are at once durable, portable, and easily divisible.[43] The use of gold as proto-money has been traced back to the fourth millennium BC when the Egyptians used gold bars of a set weight as a medium of exchange,[citation needed] as had been done earlier in Mesopotamia with silver bars.[citation needed]

[43] I I Rubin, 'A History of Economic Thought', translated Donald Filtzer, Ink Links, 1979 (original Moscow, 1929)

Since magic is a consumable currency, like salt or rice, there's no economic value for a society.  A nation can't claim worth based on consumables alone, as they're not consistent.

Perhaps in a world of magic, magic itself is readily available.  But if magic currency were the only currency, and a war suddenly depleted the Guild/nation's reserves, then the citizenry would be left to an unregulated barter system for everything until sufficient resources could be re-gathered to reform the currency. 

Offline Farmerbob1

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 70
    • View Profile
Re: Fictional Econimics
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2015, 02:53:23 AM »
Wouldn't a reduced supply in the face of normal or accelerated need in a rice-based economy just be inflation?  Each unit of rice has a value.  If there is less rice, the value goes up.  Sure, if it gets too bad, everything goes into the crapper, but gold also fluctuates in supply as well.  A new gold mine, or gold shipments lost at sea, etc.  If the price of staple food and goods goes to extremes for whatever reason, economic shenanigans happen, even in a gold economy.  The great depression took place when the US was on the gold standard.

In a high fantasy scenario, I can't imagine many ways where normal coinage or raw materials would be viable for an economic base.  People could counterfeit it too easily.

What I could imagine is an actual trade in mana itself.  Magic potential.  You might be able to take it from other people, but you literally couldn't counterfeit it.

Magically gifted people could be rich, if they wanted to be.  Magical creatures might be absurdly rich, if they wanted to trade away their magic to humans for goods.

Dragons might simply hoard magic power, making them highly irritable.  First you bother them, then they realize they have to expend magical power to kill you?  *grrr*

Magic potential would then be a great deal like a rice economy.  People would buy commodities with it.  With effort, anyone could make/grow some, but most people won't bother if they aren't good at it.

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
Re: Fictional Econimics
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2015, 03:37:33 AM »
Wouldn't a reduced supply in the face of normal or accelerated need in a rice-based economy just be inflation?  Each unit of rice has a value.  If there is less rice, the value goes up.  Sure, if it gets too bad, everything goes into the crapper, but gold also fluctuates in supply as well.  A new gold mine, or gold shipments lost at sea, etc.  If the price of staple food and goods goes to extremes for whatever reason, economic shenanigans happen, even in a gold economy.  The great depression took place when the US was on the gold standard.

In a high fantasy scenario, I can't imagine many ways where normal coinage or raw materials would be viable for an economic base.  People could counterfeit it too easily.

What I could imagine is an actual trade in mana itself.  Magic potential.  You might be able to take it from other people, but you literally couldn't counterfeit it.

Magically gifted people could be rich, if they wanted to be.  Magical creatures might be absurdly rich, if they wanted to trade away their magic to humans for goods.

Dragons might simply hoard magic power, making them highly irritable.  First you bother them, then they realize they have to expend magical power to kill you?  *grrr*

Magic potential would then be a great deal like a rice economy.  People would buy commodities with it.  With effort, anyone could make/grow some, but most people won't bother if they aren't good at it.
Gold reserves attributed to a nation's wealth wouldn't be shipped by cargo ship (unless it's WW2 and you're shipping your valuables to the U.S. to keep them out of Nazi hands). It sits in a vault and waits to be used as needed.  Your can't do that with consumables like rice.  If one nation tried to pay another with rice, and the other nation is in a gold standard, then the rice nation would be laughed away.

Using solidified magic is certainly more stable then perishable goods, but it'd still be susceptible to depletion via necessary use in some circumstances.  The same for gold being paid out for aide or services, except that gold can be used in credit.  A nation literally using its magical reserves in war would leave it's citizens without any monetary units until it could be replaced. 

I don't know any more about Quantus' world then what he's shared, but in the system I'm proposing, getting rich off of gold alone would be pointless, since the higher value is the magic gems.  Those that could use magic well enough to make fake or counterfeit gold wouldn't see the point.  Their world would received instead around the gems, which would be policed by the Guild.  And the only violation there would be passing off unauthorized work as the standard, which they would punish with impunity.

So if war broke out, and the magic was needed to fuel weapons and such, the citizens would still have coinage to use day to day.  Magical reserves might dwindle, leaving some unable to power gadgets and tools, but the food makes could remain open.