Author Topic: Enchanted Items: Multiple Uses At Once?  (Read 2008 times)

Offline Sigma77

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Enchanted Items: Multiple Uses At Once?
« on: March 29, 2015, 02:13:27 AM »
So, can't believe this hadn't occurred to me until today, but...

Was wondering how folks here would handle an enchanted item built for an attack spell that had multiple uses triggering all of said uses at once. Let's use an example.

Harry's later Force Rings, the ones stacked on each other? He can trigger just a few, or all of them at the same time. To me, this is modeled best by thinking of them as having multiple uses, or a high frequency count. But when he triggers them all at the same time, he's using every single frequency use at the same time for a really big attack.

Would you allow it? I think I would. It's a big attack, but once you've used it... well. Done. You've got nothing left there - you've completely taken that item out of the game for the rest of the session. Thoughts?

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Enchanted Items: Multiple Uses At Once?
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2015, 02:52:07 AM »
I probably wouldn't allow it. Crafting is very strong, so I don't like to interpret ambiguous situations in its favour.

And anyway I wouldn't be sure how to adjudicate it. What's the power of a multi-use activation? You can't just multiply the strength by the number of uses used, that'd be crazy.

Offline Cadd

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Re: Enchanted Items: Multiple Uses At Once?
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2015, 04:00:14 AM »
Since there are actually very few times he doesn't perform a "blow out" after he's upgraded the number, and he never uses all his charges one at a time, I'd treat all his (in the end) 24 bands as two enchanted items. One item with a low-ish power (relatively) and 5-6 uses, and the other item with a single charge but maxed out power.

As Sancta I wouldn't allow multiple discharges at once.
I might, in a special circumstance, allow several charges to be spent at once at drastically reduced effect. Say the item is a W:5 attack, I could possibly allow a blow-out to add +1 weapon rating per one or two extra charges spent, or so. Might require a FP as well.

Offline Taran

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Re: Enchanted Items: Multiple Uses At Once?
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2015, 04:19:52 AM »
I work magic items like so:

What kind of action would it take to do the said action stored in the item:

Dodge = reactive block item
Block = block (action)
Attack = attack (action)
Skill replacement (movement action?)  Part of the particular action taken.

You can't do multiple actions at once, so you can only trigger one(standard action) item in a single exchange.  You could, though, use a reactive block to 'dodge' an attack then, on your turn, use a block item or an attack/maneuver item.

The items that get tricky are maneuvers.  You could have an item with 3 stored maneuvers.  Let's say a power 9 item with three power 3 fragile maneuvers.  Which you can then tag for a +6...seems powerful.

But, I'd say it might depend on the maneuvers since many maneuvers can be opposed.  Your Gm may just straight out disallow that.

**Regarding reflexive items.  One GM I had used to allow 2 activations of reactive blocks: one for a block for the attack and another activation to convert the block to armour.  So, if you had an item that was power 4, with 3 activations, you could use it to oppose a 6 shift attack.  You'd take damage, but you could activate the second item to alleviate 2 shifts of the damage you just took via armour.

In any case, I wouldn't allow multiple items to stack.  I'd just take the highest value.

Offline Remi

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Re: Enchanted Items: Multiple Uses At Once?
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2015, 05:31:35 AM »
Harry's later Force Rings, the ones stacked on each other? He can trigger just a few, or all of them at the same time. To me, this is modeled best by thinking of them as having multiple uses, or a high frequency count. But when he triggers them all at the same time, he's using every single frequency use at the same time for a really big attack.

Harry seems to fire off a bunch of the rings at once at least once per book when he really needs it (i.e., the plot demands it).

I try to make the game work as much like the books as is reasonable, so if the plot of your scenario demands it and it doesn't destroy your scene, you should consider it if you think it makes sense in your campaign.

The problem is that once you let players get away with something like this, they may try to do it all the time. You still have a several avenues of recourse.

The easiest way to regulate this is to require they spend a fate point for each extra charge used. That gives an inherent cost that limits abuse. Basically, any time a character wants to do something that Harry does in the books that isn't covered directly by the rules, you can charge them a fate chip.

You could require that the player take a stunt that allows "supercharging" items this way. If you want to limit this, you can also charge a fate point every time they do it.

Then are purely mechanical solutions: The player has to roll a to-hit, and your NPCs have fate chips to spend to increase their defensive rolls. That means the player can blow all the charges on the rings and miss completely, wasting all those charges. If this happens a few times when the player is abusing this capability, they should get the message.

Then, there are campaign-based solutions: over the long haul, that wizard will get a reputation for pulling this trick, and NPCs will eventually be prepared for it. That's a big part of Harry's shtick in the books -- he knows his opponents' tendencies and plans for them with all sorts of gimmicks. All it takes is one opponent who has a specially prepared mirror gizmo or tricky spell maneuver to turn all that power back on the caster, and he will be more selective about cutting loose.

Finally, using that much energy at once can have dire consequences, especially if those attacks are aimed at mortals, or if mortals get caught in the crossfire. If your wizard PC blows out the side of a building and it crushes a busfull of kiddies on a field trip, the White Council may have a thing or two to say.

So, you as the GM don't have to say "no" to a player. You can have the NPCs or the story line show him the error of his ways in-game.

Offline dragoonbuster

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Re: Enchanted Items: Multiple Uses At Once?
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2015, 09:17:26 AM »
I think a stunt or an invoke for effect, combined with the appropriate item, could be used to reconfigure an items power/uses setup on the fly at an exchange rate of 1 power to 2 uses. Harry would invoke his HC for effect to manipulate how much energy he releases in those rings, for instance.

That said, were I making a PC, I'd go the route of two separate items configured separate ways.

The items that get tricky are maneuvers.  You could have an item with 3 stored maneuvers.  Let's say a power 9 item with three power 3 fragile maneuvers.  Which you can then tag for a +6...seems powerful.

This is something you can already do per RAW. Last paragraph of YS pg 265 addresses it. If you have thaumaturgy, you can place any single thaumaturgical spell into an enchanted item, which means a single use of an enchanted item could place more than one aspect at once. This is also the main reason evothaum becomes mechanically powerful.

Example Item, assuming a character with Thaumaturgy, no crafting bonuses, and Lore 6:
Rain Stick: The right word and a couple flips of your trusty rainstick summons a localized storm.
-Places [Rain] and [Howling Wind] @ Complexity 3 each on the scene until the scene ends or is canceled
-1 use, 1 enchanted slot
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Offline Taran

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Re: Enchanted Items: Multiple Uses At Once?
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2015, 12:35:37 PM »
I know you can do it by RAW but I know of GMs who don't allow it.  I, myself, keep a close eye on it.   The aspects have to make sense to the situation, I don't allow stacking of the same aspect multiple times, and I always try to be conscious of when enemies can oppose maneuvers as soon as the item is activated - even naval gazing ones. 

So if you want a lot of fragile aspects, many of them might get opposed as reactions right off the bat since 3 shifts is easy to beat.

Also fragile aspects don't last long so if you don't use them almost immediately, they'll go away. 

So your rain stick might only last 1 exchange.  Only sticky aspects last a whole scene.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 12:37:38 PM by Taran »

Offline Haru

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Re: Enchanted Items: Multiple Uses At Once?
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2015, 03:02:24 PM »
You could allow a player to spontaneously transfer uses into power. This could be your houserule or you allow it under special circumstances only. I would suggest a rate of sacrificing 2 uses to get +1 power on the item. Then use as usual.
Since that's what you get for 1 enchanted item slot, that seems only fair. Not sure how balanced this is, but I seem to remember having a similar discussion around here that came to a similar solution.
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Offline Sigma77

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Re: Enchanted Items: Multiple Uses At Once?
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2015, 03:23:54 PM »
After considering the different solutions, I actually really like Haru's. I think it strikes a very good balance between the books and the game mechanics. Think that'll be the one I use!

Thank you gentlemen for your helpful insight and suggestions. This is why I love this community. (tips hat)

Offline Taran

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Re: Enchanted Items: Multiple Uses At Once?
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2015, 03:25:07 PM »
You could allow a player to spontaneously transfer uses into power. This could be your houserule or you allow it under special circumstances only. I would suggest a rate of sacrificing 2 uses to get +1 power on the item. Then use as usual.
Since that's what you get for 1 enchanted item slot, that seems only fair. Not sure how balanced this is, but I seem to remember having a similar discussion around here that came to a similar solution.

I think it is balanced but it kind of removes the need to ever put Power into an item.  It'd always be better to add frequency and trade it out for power when you need it.

Offline Sigma77

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Re: Enchanted Items: Multiple Uses At Once?
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2015, 03:59:08 PM »
Might be worth a stunt/power to do it, perhaps?

Offline Haru

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Re: Enchanted Items: Multiple Uses At Once?
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2015, 04:03:51 PM »
Depends. If you allow it as a houserule, everyone with enchanted items can do it, including the opposition, so I think it's fair enough.

Another way to balance it is to make it a one time thing, which is kind of in line with the books as well. If a player wants to do something like this, he needs to deplete the item, all or nothing. He converts all uses that are left into power and fires them, but he can't use the item until the next time he gets a chance to replenish them (a milestone or refresh). That includes the "pay a mental stress to use a magic item" rule, that's out as well for this item. That way it can be a big nuke, but it isn't as versatile as it might otherwise be.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Enchanted Items: Multiple Uses At Once?
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2015, 04:54:20 PM »
No matter how you do it, the extra option will make crafters stronger compared to everyone else. I'm not sure that that's a good idea.