Are there any advantages to Power over Control?

[WadeL]

I've heard folks talk several times about how Power is weaker than Control, but I was wondering if there are any advantages to going Power-heavy?

(Not talking about Conviction-heavy - which has its own advantages - but Power heavy).

If you've got 5 Power, 5 Control, on an even die roll you can generate 10 shifts of damage while only taking one stress.

If you've got 3 Power, 7 Control, on an even die roll you can also generate 10 shifts of damage for one stress.

But if you've got 7 Power, 3 Control, on an even die roll you can only generate 6 shifts of damage for one stress. You can get up to 10 by also taking a 4 stress hit for backlash, but that only brings you up to parity, it doesn't actually give you any advantages.

Are there any advantages to going Power heavy?

[Haru]

I prefer control over power myself, but there is one application I can see, Rote spells. You don't have to control them, so you don't have to deal with backlash. Just aim and shoot, or in cases of blocks and some maneuvers, just declare them to be there. Done right, you can have a pretty powerful arsenal at your disposal.

For anything else, a parity of power and control will most likely give you the best results, with control being slightly better.

[PirateJack]

Just to clarify: If you set up a rote spell with more power than you have control, you'll be taking backlash or fallout every time you cast that spell.

The only reason I would make such a rote would be if I had a recovery or toughness power (or No Pain No Gain) to help deal with the extra stress I'd be taking. Could make for an interesting Blood Mage type character.

[dragoonbuster]

Having more Power available is what'll be restricting the effective strength you can throw out Blocks and Maneuvers. If you see yourself using a lot of those, then you'll need to make sure your Power is up to snuff or you'll burn a lot of Mental to get them higher in combat.

Personally, I like to try to keep my Control at least +1 over my Power in specializations, and use Foci to mainly boost control from there, occasionally boosting Power with them--but always maintaining P = C + X, where X can be anything (and I prefer at least 1; statistically just the +1 control over power makes it way harder to fail a non-rote at base Power). I'd never have my Power higher than my control, unless I wanted to from a RP perspective (Blood Mage idea that PirateJack suggested, etc).

[WadeL]

Having more Power available is what'll be restricting the effective strength you can throw out Blocks and Maneuvers. If you see yourself using a lot of those, then you'll need to make sure your Power is up to snuff or you'll burn a lot of Mental to get them higher in combat.

Again though, it really is about making sure your Power is close to your Control...no real motive to go over your Control, is there?

[Hick Jr]

Control is only straight-up better when you're using attacks, which certainly isn't the only thing you can do with evocation. Otherwise, power is usually about equally as good. However, it's usually worth getting a +4 Control foci if you can afford the Refinements. Never blowing an evocation roll at your base power is handy.

[Sanctaphrax]

If you're planning to cast with backlash, power > control might be a good idea. If your power is 1 greater than your control, you can use your fourth physical and mental stress boxes to cast a spell at your control +4 with an average roll.

That's a bit of a niche case, but it's something.

[WadeL]

If you're planning to cast with backlash, power > control might be a good idea. If your power is 1 greater than your control, you can use your fourth physical and mental stress boxes to cast a spell at your control +4 with an average roll.

That's a bit of a niche case, but it's something.

That's not the worst, I guess.  Let's take the scenarios from my first post, and run them from the point of view of "going for maximum effect, willing to take stress but no consequences, and have 4 mental and physical stress boxes, rolling even on the dice".

5 Power, 5 Control - I can go up to a Power 9 attack for 4 mental stress, and then can take 4 physical stress to control the backlash - 14 damage.
3 Power, 7 Control - I can go up to a Power 7 attack for 4 mental stress, I've still got no backlash - 14 damage.
7 Power, 3 Control - Hrm, it actually doesn't work out so well. For a 1 stress hit and a 4 stress hit (for backlash) I can still get up to 14 damage. No better.

The Power over Control person has an advantage in stress taken compared to having them even (which I didn't expect), but still no reason not to favour Control fairly heavily unless I'm missing something.

I do see how for non-attack stuff it is fine to have them be around the same, but again, no advantages to favouring Power.

I'm mostly trying to confirm this is the case and I haven't missed anything subtle, before going off and deciding if I want to tweak it at all.

[PirateJack]

I'd like it if there was a mechanic in place that made taking Power over Control a viable choice. I dislike how static all my wizard builds are in that regard.

[kurtpotts]

With great preparation I can see power being better, but only if you can set up first. Assuming you have the time to set up all the free tags you need to control all the power you can call up. The power heavy player can overcast higher than the control heavy character. As far as I understand there is no upper limit to how many tags you can apply to a roll if they make sense. You just have to prep or get your ass kicked for the whole story and hoard those fate points.

[dragoonbuster]

I'd like it if there was a mechanic in place that made taking Power over Control a viable choice. I dislike how static all my wizard builds are in that regard.

I agree, though realistically, there's got to be the whole "I control my spell successfully" shebang, and drawbacks if you don't. At least for how the DV magic works.

The only idea that jumps to my head is maybe giving wizards who take consequences from Backlash the ability to tag their own consequences (maybe need a stunt for it)..."I gritted my teeth and drew on the pain from my broken ankle, using it as fuel for my fury before I let it loose. 'FUEGO!'" Etc...It fits with how Harry has described his sources of power in combat--powerful emotion and pain have always been in there. Mechanically, the opposite is probably happening (he takes a consequence as part of the spell and describes it the way I just did), but whatever. Normally I do things like this with Conviction navel-gazing maneuvers, but it might help? I dunno...it feels a bit powerful, but at the same time, you're getting yourself closer and closer to being taken out, so it's a dangerous game to play. I'd want to run a few mock conflicts to test it first.

Some custom stunts can also help with this...I recall one of the NPCs on the Resource Board having a stunt that reduced fallout by 2 shifts.

[Sanctaphrax]

5 Power, 5 Control - I can go up to a Power 9 attack for 4 mental stress, and then can take 4 physical stress to control the backlash - 14 damage.
3 Power, 7 Control - I can go up to a Power 7 attack for 4 mental stress, I've still got no backlash - 14 damage.
7 Power, 3 Control - Hrm, it actually doesn't work out so well. For a 1 stress hit and a 4 stress hit (for backlash) I can still get up to 14 damage. No better.

Not quite. Spells have a base cost of 1 stress, so 4 stress only gets you up to power + 3.

And I don't think backlash helps with targeting rolls, though the book is a bit unclear about that. So the high-power guy is probably only doing 10 stress with a 7-power spell. Control really shines on attacks.

I'm mostly trying to confirm this is the case and I haven't missed anything subtle, before going off and deciding if I want to tweak it at all.

You should take aspect invocations and roll variance into account. Aspect invocations make high-power a bit better, since it makes it possible to control spells that are way above your maximum control.

Roll variance actually favours the guy with a control surplus, though.

...realistically...

What?

The only idea that jumps to my head is maybe giving wizards who take consequences from Backlash the ability to tag their own consequences (maybe need a stunt for it)..."I gritted my teeth and drew on the pain from my broken ankle, using it as fuel for my fury before I let it loose. 'FUEGO!'" Etc...It fits with how Harry has described his sources of power in combat--powerful emotion and pain have always been in there. Mechanically, the opposite is probably happening (he takes a consequence as part of the spell and describes it the way I just did), but whatever. Normally I do things like this with Conviction navel-gazing maneuvers, but it might help? I dunno...it feels a bit powerful, but at the same time, you're getting yourself closer and closer to being taken out, so it's a dangerous game to play. I'd want to run a few mock conflicts to test it first.

It's not really a good idea to give wizards any extra power for free. Might be balanced as a stunt/Power, but it would encourage alpha-striking and that's likely to make the game less fun.

[wyvern]

When setting up specializations and focus items, no, there's no particular advantage to power over control (assuming you have "enough" power, anyway, which is mostly an issue for maneuvers.  But can also matter for some of the interesting things you can do with sponsored magic evothaum...)

However, when setting up skills, there's a very good reason to go for power over control: power is tied to the same stat that gives you your casting stress track.  So if you're looking at will 5 / discipline 4, versus will 4 / discipline 5, the former gives you an extra minor mental consequence slot, which means one more spell you can get off when you really need to.

[dragoonbuster]

What?

Reworded: "I agree, but based on canonical descriptions of how spellcasting works in the Dresdenverse, there's got to be some kind of "I control my spell successfully" shebang, and drawbacks if you don't. "

How's that? That's what I get for writing stuff right after waking up.

[WadeL]

Not quite. Spells have a base cost of 1 stress, so 4 stress only gets you up to power + 3.

Ahh, yeah, forgot that.

You should take aspect invocations and roll variance into account. Aspect invocations make high-power a bit better, since it makes it possible to control spells that are way above your maximum control.

I don't see it?  Like, comparing our power and control goons again, saying both of them are invoking +4 worth of Aspects.

5 Power, 5 Control - My base effect, invoking those aspects, is going to be 14. If I'm going out and take extra stress to get my Power to 8, that puts me at 17 instead.
3 Power, 7 Control - Base effect is going to be 14. If I push myself, I'll get to Power 6, for a 17 again.
7 Power, 3 Control - Base going in, with no extra stress, is going to be 14. Or I can take 4 stress for increased power, and a 3 stress to absorb backlash, and do a Power 10 attack...which gets me up to 17, for exactly the same effect as the other guys get, only I have to take more stress to do it.