Author Topic: Help starting out...  (Read 8967 times)

Offline Periwinkles

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Help starting out...
« on: September 29, 2014, 08:07:12 PM »
(I'm not sure if this is the forum for this...)

So my friend has invited me to join his upcoming Dresden campaign after he found out I've read three of the books. He's not told me the power levels, so I'm going to go with the middle ground and assume it's 'Up to your waist'. I'm still unclear on some mechanics, though I've got it into my head that I really want to be a magic user/wizard. So here's my questions:

In your experience, what are the benefits and applications of Evocation and Thaumaturgy? Could one replace the other? Which is more useful?

What is the 'spirit' element? What sorts of spells fall under it?

How can I add extra survivability to my character? I was thinking Evocation and some sort of speed thing, like mythic speed?


And finally, I'll have to point out that I've not read all the books, so I'm not sure if this messes with the cannon or the rules...but I had this idea for a character and wanted to ask you guys for opinions/input/recommendations. One idea, was the concept of a female wizard who is, for lack of better words, frankenstein's monster. Not so much visually, but basically at some point in the past she dies and her father, who packs some serious magical mojo uses necromancy and all manner of black magic to resurrect her. Visually she's not that different from a regular human, but she came back wrong. There's no trace of the old personality, and barely any memories from before remain. This drives her father mad as he's gone and broken loads of rules for nothing, and she winds up squatting in an old church/warehouse/place after getting away. Basically I want to achieve a Wizard who believes they are an abomination, created by black magic, and as such, feels a degree of resentment towards black magic and overcomes her instincts of self-preservation to prove to herself that she's not a monster. Someone who will walk away, feel guilty and come crashing back in cursing the party for making her go soft. She could have a journal written in code, but with enough illustrations to make her feel like her origins are terrible/disgusting. Also she could be in hiding, as he is trying to undo and remake her at some point. It would


Or, if resurrection in itself isn't possible, perhaps we could have an aging/sickly black wizard, who fearing death instructs her thralls/lover/apprentice to find a young girl with magical talents, abduct her and prepare her body as a vessel. Things go awry and the result is someone who has some good knowledge of magic, but cannot remember a thing. It's unclear to the character whether she's the black wizard in a new body sans evil personality, the original owner of the body, who lacks an identity or something in the middle, a evil wizard timebomb waiting to happen.

I'm not trying to pick out any undead-related skills, but I simply want the association and self-loathing aspects as I think it'd be pretty interesting type of character to have around. Though I don't really know much; I'd love to see some character sheets from other players and stuff, just to know what other people do! So if you have a character lying around, please show me!

Offline Haru

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Re: Help starting out...
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2014, 08:43:45 PM »
(I'm not sure if this is the forum for this...)
Most certainly, welcome aboard, grab a cookie.

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In your experience, what are the benefits and applications of Evocation and Thaumaturgy? Could one replace the other? Which is more useful?
Evocation is quick and dirty magic. Kind of like firing a gun, only a lot more versatile. Depending on the Elements you take (evocation grants you knowledge of 3 elements for your spells, you need to buy the rest), it can be a wide range of things, but usually it's all of the "throw and hope the best" persuasion. Throwing a fireball, setting up a wall of hardened air, instantly turning the ground into quicksand, and so on. You are limited in how much power in terms of shifts you can bring to bear with evocation, but you can do it NOW.
Thaumaturgy is usually a lot slower and takes time to prepare. It also allows you to be more nuanced and more precise with what you are doing. And it allows you to go REALLY big, if you need to be.

I like to think of the difference as throwing a rock and carrying a rock. When you throw the rock, it will go a lot faster than if you carry it. And that's good if that's what you need it to do. Carrying the rock the same distance will take longer, but you can carry it around obstacles, and you can carry it a lot further, if you want to.

Ultimately, both are very useful. Harry's tracking spell, for example, is thaumaturgy. His "Fuego!" spell is evocation. You'll have to decide for yourself, what kind of magic is more important to you. Or take both, if you can't decide. Doing Thaumaturgy can be just as fun as slugging out ball of fire.

If you need an explanation of how the magic system works, I can go into that in another post, if you like.

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What is the 'spirit' element? What sorts of spells fall under it?
Usually things connected to force, sound (which might be air to some), light, mental stuff, etc. The ultimate arbiter though is your group. If you have an idea for something that you think should be spirit, ask your group if they think that's ok, and you're good to go.

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How can I add extra survivability to my character? I was thinking Evocation and some sort of speed thing, like mythic speed?
Character's aren't usually too squishy. As a wizard, I'd advice you to put your enchanted items towards defense. A strong block that can be used reactively can really save your ass.

Mythic speed is probably out. For one, it's usually reserved for characters whose whole concept is tied to speed. And you won't have nearly enough refresh to buy a -6 refresh power in addition to evocation and/or thaumaturgy. But even lower levels aren't really necessary. You can make up for a lack of a dodging skill with spells and enchanted items.

Again, if you need an enchanted item 101, let me know.

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And finally, I'll have to point out that I've not read all the books, so I'm not sure if this messes with the cannon or the rules...but I had this idea for a character and wanted to ask you guys for opinions/input/recommendations. One idea, was the concept of a female wizard who is, for lack of better words, frankenstein's monster. Not so much visually, but basically at some point in the past she dies and her father, who packs some serious magical mojo uses necromancy and all manner of black magic to resurrect her. Visually she's not that different from a regular human, but she came back wrong. There's no trace of the old personality, and barely any memories from before remain. This drives her father mad as he's gone and broken loads of rules for nothing, and she winds up squatting in an old church/warehouse/place after getting away. Basically I want to achieve a Wizard who believes they are an abomination, created by black magic, and as such, feels a degree of resentment towards black magic and overcomes her instincts of self-preservation to prove to herself that she's not a monster. Someone who will walk away, feel guilty and come crashing back in cursing the party for making her go soft. She could have a journal written in code, but with enough illustrations to make her feel like her origins are terrible/disgusting. Also she could be in hiding, as he is trying to undo and remake her at some point. It would
Sounds like a solid base. I would be careful with making the character too emo or black, unless it fits the game you are going to play. Ambiguous characters are great, but go too dark, if the group is a lot whiter, and it's going to be a rough fit. You'll probably get all kinds of different views on this, but the only view that matters is, again, that of your group. Present the idea to them and ask them what they think. Maybe they like it, maybe they will suggest a few changes, but in the end, it's you and your group that has to be happy with the characters you play.

For what it's worth, in one of my games, there's a wizard who died and came back as a marble statue. ;)

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Or, if resurrection in itself isn't possible, perhaps we could have an aging/sickly black wizard, who fearing death instructs her thralls/lover/apprentice to find a young girl with magical talents, abduct her and prepare her body as a vessel. Things go awry and the result is someone who has some good knowledge of magic, but cannot remember a thing. It's unclear to the character whether she's the black wizard in a new body sans evil personality, the original owner of the body, who lacks an identity or something in the middle, a evil wizard timebomb waiting to happen.

I'm not trying to pick out any undead-related skills, but I simply want the association and self-loathing aspects as I think it'd be pretty interesting type of character to have around. Though I don't really know much; I'd love to see some character sheets from other players and stuff, just to know what other people do! So if you have a character lying around, please show me!
As I said above, the character mainly needs to fit in with the rest of the group. Not in a way that everyone has to be friends, but in a way that you can create a good story. If the rest of the characters would either avoid your character or slit his throat, that's not going to happen. I had an "evil family curse hellfire" character in one of my pbp games, and he sort of blew up the whole game, to the point that I had to kick him out. It kind of sucked for everyone involved.

But the idea is interesting. Maybe you could ask the group if they would like to have the first story arc centered around defusing the "timebomb wizard". It could involve getting his memories back, one way or another, and it could be a way to lead him towards a more manageable gray rather than black, at least.

And, because I post this for everyone new, the sample combat to get an overview of how things work:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,20530.0.html
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Offline Baron Hazard

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Re: Help starting out...
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2014, 08:44:12 PM »
1. so a game usually determines a power level that each character start with, so you may want to make sure, its possible your friends game is using varied power levels. Just wanted to have that said, in case.

2. A magic user is definately possible at "Up to your waist" but you wont even manage to get the full wizard package at that level (you'll be 1 refresh short), you'd need at least chest deep, subermerged would be better so you can choose to grab some refinement or a stunt or two.

3. In my experience magic is like this: Thaumaturgy is very powerful, infinitely useful and you never have time to do it when you need it most. Evocation is powerful, less versatile but its what stops the invisible demon from eating your face when they are standing in front of you.

4. The spirit element utilizes anything that isn't one of the other 4 elements, this can be alot (and indeed magic is what the wielder believes so this can vary fro, wizard to wizard) but under it falls acts of kinetics (i.e. pure force fields, kinetic attacks (such as Forzare) and mind magic for sure.

5. At up to your waist, you don't have alot of options especially if going for the wizard package. With the wizard package i'd suggest a defensive item or two, or get ready with some sweet potions.

5a. if you free up some refresh, you certainly wouldnt have the refresh to get mythic speed (if it were even allowed), and your concept would have to justify where it came from. It seems to me like you want to avoid stress, instead of absorbing it, but reallyy our choices range from supernatural powers/refinement or stunts.

5b. Remember that it is REALLY HARD for your character to die if you don't want them to. That isnt what the game is about. Losing/conceeding a fight generally involves you running away or getting captured.

5c. I rather like the concept, though i only had time to glance over it, though it wou;d provide lots of complications in her existence and she may be destroyed if her origins are ever discovered by the Council.

Offline Periwinkles

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Re: Help starting out...
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2014, 09:05:01 PM »
Well, with regards to the speed deal, it's because I'm very unfamiliar with the FATE system. I've been playing DnD mostly, and lets just say my old DM really loved his Beholders and generally making the combat impossible unless his DMNPC was fighting with us. (God I hate Shardminds thanks to that...) I guess I'm a bit used to desperately building up optimized builds to contend with that sort of thing :S

Okay, so I guess I'm picking up Evocation as my number one important skill, and Thaumaturgy as a second. I take it abilities like the Sight, Soul Gaze and Hexing technology into oblivion also require refresh? Also since we're supposed to make-up our own spells, anyone have any of their own to share? I'm a little intimidated at the prospect, caught myself trying to convert Swordmage skills from 4ed into Dresden spells. Though I'd love an explanation into the magic system, and also the stress system too. I sort of think I understood it when I re-read Fool's Moon and Dresden spent the last part of the book with that crippling mental block on his magic, I'm assuming it's an example of a major consequence from overusing magic/too much mental stress? I'm not sure.  :-[


Enchanted Item 101 please @_@


No worries though, I'm not planning on making her too black or emo. Rather, more of a Piccolo Jr as of the beginning of DBZ. Fearsome, perhaps intimidating and stand-offish, but never outright bad. Like, someone who acts like they don't care, but ultimately really comes through. Bad girl with a heart of gold, so to speak.

 I'm just trying to come up with a few things so when I do go to the session I have some rough idea what I'm doing...as it's only been three hours since I found out there was a Dresden files rpg .-.

Offline Haru

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Re: Help starting out...
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2014, 09:46:27 PM »
Well, with regards to the speed deal, it's because I'm very unfamiliar with the FATE system. I've been playing DnD mostly, and lets just say my old DM really loved his Beholders and generally making the combat impossible unless his DMNPC was fighting with us. (God I hate Shardminds thanks to that...) I guess I'm a bit used to desperately building up optimized builds to contend with that sort of thing :S
That's a very common story. Kind of where I come from myself. Fate is a lot less like that. If a conflict goes bad, you always have the option to concede. It means that you willingly lose the fight, but you get to dictate how that happens. So for example you lose the MacGuffin but get away with your life. The villain gets away, but he doesn't kill your friends. And so on. You need to offer a concession before dice are rolled though. Once they are in the air, the current action needs to be resolved, before you can offer a concession.

Maybe a word to the dice system first: You always roll 4DF or 4 Fate dice. A Fate dice has 2 sides with a "+", 2 sides with a "-" and 2 sides which are blank. That means on a roll, you can get anything from -4 to +4, though it's most likely to get something around 0. You add the result of the dice to the skill you are using, and that's your result. The number is often called "shifts", as in "one shift up the ladder". So if you have a skill of 3 and roll +,+,-,O your end result would be 3+1+1-1=4.

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Okay, so I guess I'm picking up Evocation as my number one important skill, and Thaumaturgy as a second. I take it abilities like the Sight, Soul Gaze and Hexing technology into oblivion also require refresh? Also since we're supposed to make-up our own spells, anyone have any of their own to share? I'm a little intimidated at the prospect, caught myself trying to convert Swordmage skills from 4ed into Dresden spells. Though I'd love an explanation into the magic system, and also the stress system too. I sort of think I understood it when I re-read Fool's Moon and Dresden spent the last part of the book with that crippling mental block on his magic, I'm assuming it's an example of a major consequence from overusing magic/too much mental stress? I'm not sure.  :-[
For magic in general, there are 3 important skills: Discipline, Conviction and Lore. For evocation, lore is a bit less important.

When you cast a spell, you decide on a number of shifts the spell is supposed to have in power. Your Conviction is important here. If the spells power is equal or less than your conviction, you take 1 shift of mental stress as casting stress when you cast a spell. Every shift above that adds 1 additional shift.
Example: Say you have conviction of 4 and want to cast a 5 shift spell. That's 2 shifts of mental stress, 1 up to 4 and 1 for the 5.
Your mental stress track with conviction 4 looks like this: OOOO
Since you take 2 shifts of mental stress for this spell, it looks like this afterwards: OXOO

Next comes controlling the spell. That involves rolling your discipline. You need to roll equal or higher than the power you announced to completely control the spell. If you do, the spell is a success, and your target must defend against what you rolled on your discipline roll, since it is simultaneously your attack roll.
If you fall short, you've got 2 options: Backlash and Fallout. In both cases, you deal with the overrunning magic. Backlash means that you take the number of shifts you didn't control as stress, either mental or physical, your choice at the time. Doing so lets the spell go off as planned. Or you release the excess energy into the air, that's called fallout. It's usually done by using the excess shifts as an additional spell that's in some way detrimental to the character.
So say you rolled a 3 on your discipline roll of the spell above, which kind of sucks. It means you are 2 shifts short of the power. You could take it as mental stress, in which case your mental stress would look like this: OXXO
That's because your second stress box is already full, so the stress rolls up. Your physical stress track is still clear at this time, so you know what to do there.

You can take specializations and focus items to increase your control (the discipline roll) or power (conviction for determining casting stress).

If the above was an attack spell, it would be a 3 shift attack (meaning the target has to roll higher than 3 to avoid it) with a weapon:5 spell (the spells power). The weapon rating gets added to the number of stress you inflict, if you hit the target. Say your target rolls a 2. That means you hit for 3-2=1 and add 5 to that for the weapon, the target takes a 6 shift hit. Since a stress track (without powers) is only 4 boxes long at maximum, the target has to take a consequence. Everyone has 3 consequences, a mild (2), moderate (4) and severe (6) one. The numbers are the amount of stress they take off the attack. You name the consequence in an appropriate way. Since we just attacked with a fireball, we could take a mild consequence of "mild burns" and take the remaining 4 shifts as stress. Once a character can't (or won't) take any more stress, they are taken out and can no longer participate in the current conflict. Which would have happened to your target, had he not taken a consequence. Since they heal very slowly, it's important to ration them for when you really need them. Sometimes it's better to cut your losses and get the hell out of a fight.



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Enchanted Item 101 please @_@
Certainly. Over all, it's not too complicated. Basically, you can store spells in them, that you don't need to pay casting stress for using.

When taking evocation, you get 2 focus item slots, you can buy additional ones with refresh (via the refinement power). 1 focus item slot can be exchanged for 2 enchanted item slots. Which are what we will work with right now. Other than evocation, enchanted items power is based off Lore. Your enchanted items can only store power equal to or less than your Lore.

So if you've go a lore of 3, any spell in an enchanted item would be power:3. You can add an additional enchanted item slot to an item to increase the power by 1, but it can't exceed double your Lore.
Say we want to create an item that acts as a shield. A coat that protects you from attacks. Since it protects you, it's a block, and since we don't want to do anything else with it, it's a 3 shift block that you can use once per session. You can add additional uses per session by adding enchanted item slots again. 1 additional enchanted item slot gives you 2 more uses per session.

An enchanted item can not hold more item slots than your Lore.

When using the item, you do so just as you would do anything else. I personally allow enchanted items with blocks to be used retroactively (so someone attacks you, you botch your defense roll, now you use your enchanted item), but others might not like it. Again, something to ask your GM.

Enchanted items with attack spells stored are basically weapons that you can use with a predetermined skill. As long as you have a good justification for it, that can be pretty much any skill. You can simply default to discipline, of course. When using an item like that, you roll your skill as an attack roll, but everything concerning the spell, like casting stress and control, is already dealt with by the item.

And lastly, if you have no more uses per session left for an item, you can spend one shift of mental stress to use it again. It can be a neat little trick, because enchanted items are quite save to use, since they can't cause backlash.

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No worries though, I'm not planning on making her too black or emo. Rather, more of a Piccolo Jr as of the beginning of DBZ. Fearsome, perhaps intimidating and stand-offish, but never outright bad. Like, someone who acts like they don't care, but ultimately really comes through. Bad girl with a heart of gold, so to speak.

 I'm just trying to come up with a few things so when I do go to the session I have some rough idea what I'm doing...as it's only been three hours since I found out there was a Dresden files rpg .-.
Just wanted to mention it, like I said, I've seen what the wrong kind of character can do to a game.

I hope I didn't overwhelm you. The magic system is a bit complicated. If something is unclear, feel free to ask.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 04:04:53 AM by Haru »
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Offline Amelia Crane

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Re: Help starting out...
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2014, 12:06:44 AM »
One idea, was the concept of a female wizard who is, for lack of better words, frankenstein's monster. Not so much visually, but basically at some point in the past she dies and her father, who packs some serious magical mojo uses necromancy and all manner of black magic to resurrect her. Visually she's not that different from a regular human, but she came back wrong. There's no trace of the old personality, and barely any memories from before remain. This drives her father mad as he's gone and broken loads of rules for nothing, and she winds up squatting in an old church/warehouse/place after getting away. Basically I want to achieve a Wizard who believes they are an abomination, created by black magic, and as such, feels a degree of resentment towards black magic and overcomes her instincts of self-preservation to prove to herself that she's not a monster. Someone who will walk away, feel guilty and come crashing back in cursing the party for making her go soft. She could have a journal written in code, but with enough illustrations to make her feel like her origins are terrible/disgusting. Also she could be in hiding, as he is trying to undo and remake her at some point. It would

Or, if resurrection in itself isn't possible, perhaps we could have an aging/sickly black wizard, who fearing death instructs her thralls/lover/apprentice to find a young girl with magical talents, abduct her and prepare her body as a vessel. Things go awry and the result is someone who has some good knowledge of magic, but cannot remember a thing. It's unclear to the character whether she's the black wizard in a new body sans evil personality, the original owner of the body, who lacks an identity or something in the middle, a evil wizard timebomb waiting to happen.

If you want to make either of these characters I would recommend reading book 7, Dead Beat.  It may spoil bits of the books in-between, but on the upside, Dead Beat is perhaps the best book of the series.

Well, with regards to the speed deal, it's because I'm very unfamiliar with the FATE system. I've been playing DnD mostly, and lets just say my old DM really loved his Beholders and generally making the combat impossible unless his DMNPC was fighting with us. (God I hate Shardminds thanks to that...) I guess I'm a bit used to desperately building up optimized builds to contend with that sort of thing :S

If the same guy is running I'm not sure he'll be very successful at running Dresden Files.  The system is really designed to help the players and game master tell a good story.  It isn't really a good system for optimizing.  And it's really a system that works best if the GM works with players and not against them.

Okay, so I guess I'm picking up Evocation as my number one important skill, and Thaumaturgy as a second. I take it abilities like the Sight, Soul Gaze and Hexing technology into oblivion also require refresh?

Not quite.  Evocation costs -3 refresh and Thaumaturgy costs -3 refresh.  If you need to skim down a few refresh points, there's a limited version of each, Channeling for -2 (which gives you only 1 element and no bonus) and Ritual (which lets you cast only some ritual spells).  The Sight and Soulgaze are each -1 refresh powers, but there is a note that says if you already have the Sight then Soulgaze is free.  Hexing, on the other hand comes for free.  Actually less than free because whenever your high concept gets compelled to cause hexing you get a fate point.

Also since we're supposed to make-up our own spells, anyone have any of their own to share? I'm a little intimidated at the prospect, caught myself trying to convert Swordmage skills from 4ed into Dresden spells.

Our resource boards might have something useful.  And if you don't find what you're looking for there, we had this thread recently that had people making up descriptions of very odd spells.

Though I'd love an explanation into the magic system, and also the stress system too. I sort of think I understood it when I re-read Fool's Moon and Dresden spent the last part of the book with that crippling mental block on his magic, I'm assuming it's an example of a major consequence from overusing magic/too much mental stress? I'm not sure.  :-[

Enchanted Item 101 please @_@

I think the simplest the magic system can be described is with these game aids from Evil Hat for Thaumaturgy and Evocation

The stress system is a very different way of thinking about things than hit points.  But your thinking of that magical burnout in Fool Moon as a consequence is showing some good understanding of it.

I think I'll let Haru answer the enchanted item one for you since he offered.  It takes some explanation.  Let me just give you the references for them.  Focus items are on Your Story page 278-9 and enchanted items are on Your Story page 279-80.

Offline g33k

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Re: Help starting out...
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2014, 06:32:26 AM »
Well, with regards to the speed deal, it's because I'm very unfamiliar with the FATE system. I've been playing DnD mostly ...

Fate is a VERY different sort of thing than D&D (as rpg's go).

D&D, and most other "traditional" RPG's, have game-mechanics that are oriented towards being a sort of "pseudo-physics" that describe the game-world -- different weapons have different damages, encumbrance, etc (and if missle-weapons, different ranges, reload-rates, etc).  Piercing damage, slashing damage, etc.  Poisons do CON damage, DEX damage, other STAT damage, or paralyze, or kill, etc.  Movement-rates (and different movement-rates for ground/air/swim/burrow) can really matter.  Tactical and strategic combat is a Thing:  flanking, higher ground, cover, etc -- all derived from the mechanistic almost-real-world (with High Fantasy trappings) of military-simulation wargames (that was the birthplace of D&D (and by extension, of so many early RPG's)).

Fate, as some other games do, has intentionally abandoned most of that "simulate-the-world" tropes.  The game intentionally does NOT have good rules to simulate a game-world, and generally is a poor engine if you want an RPG that does that.  Instead, Fate uses the tropes of narrative & character; the tropes of story (novel, movie, TV, etc) collaborative-improv.  The GM isn't there to be "evil GM, I'm gonna screw the players."  Instead, the GM *AND* the players are presumed to be JOINTLY cooperating in making an interesting story, in providing challenges that will be fun-for-players.

For example:

In D&D, the GM might say something like, "So, the infamous Skarlet Skorpion gang has finally caught up to you after you thought you lost them 3 dungeons back..." and this is just a fact; now you have to fight them, or run away, or what-have you.

In Fate, the GM might instead say, "So, you have this Aspect 'I seduced the daughter of the Skarlet Skorpion Boss' -- I think it'd be interesting if they found you right about... NOW."  And the GM offers a Fate Point for the complication that ensues (called a Compel).  The player is free to say, 'Oh, yeah!  Sounds like fun!' and take that Fate Point and THEN the arrival of the gang is a fact to deal with; but the player is also free to say, 'nah... I'm really into the story we're having NOW, without those guys showing up,' and buy out of the Compel... and then there's no crimson arachnids with extra K's!  It's all about the narrative and about fun stories...

  ... and lets just say my old DM really loved his Beholders and generally making the combat impossible unless his DMNPC was fighting with us. (God I hate Shardminds thanks to that...) I guess I'm a bit used to desperately building up optimized builds to contend with that sort of thing :S

As others have noted (and I suggest above) the adversarial-GM model is less-likely to work well in Fate.  I'd be particularly wary about the GM "making the combat impossible unless his DMNPC was fighting with us."

Have you (or other players) ever questioned the GM about that point?  To be brutally frank, I'd have talked to the GM, and probably wouldn't have stayed in that group for more than 1-2 more combats after that, if the problem persisted...


Okay, so I guess I'm picking up Evocation as my number one important skill, and Thaumaturgy as a second. I take it abilities like the Sight, Soul Gaze and Hexing technology into oblivion also require refresh?

Once again, this is going to be a rather different thing that you're expecting from the D&Dverse... for example, "Might"  is a Fate "skill" but almost an exact match for the D&D stat of "Strength;" it buys up like any other skill!  But Evocation and Thaumaturgy aren't "Skills" at all -- they cost Refresh to buy, but then need no more points to improve (instead you buy extra "Refinements" to improve them in various ways).  "Resources" is another Fate "skill," and while it may LOOK like "money" it's NOT "gold pieces" -- it's mostly your influence & ability to have the stuff-money-can-buy available at need... Having lots of gold isn't really interesting, there's no "story" there.  Needing to protect the gold may lead to stories, and always having top-notch "stuff" makes for ONE sort of character, but always needing to make-do with barely-working / held-together-with-baling-wire-and-prayer "stuff" makes for ANOTHER sort of character... depending on your Resources skill!

BUT... it's a skill, bought as a skill (and it's NOT "gold pieces"!) so finding a big pile o' gold in-game won't improve your "Resources" skill!

If you've found a pile o' gold in a Fate game, that's the GM signalling you, "we are now about to have some story about your characters unexpectedly coming into possession of a Big Pile of Gold."  Maybe it's a dragon-hoard... but the thief didn't slay the dragon before stealing it (and now the dragon is coming for the gold with a negotiate-nothing / take-no-prisoners attitude); maybe it's faerie-gold... and you're now obligated to Summer or Winter to conduct some sort of "chore" for them.  Whatever... it's a narrative device, with in-character consequences... it's NOT generic wealth!

Because Fate is about the narrative, and the characters interacting in interesting story ways... NOT about simulating the game-world!


- Steve, the g33k
 

Offline solbergb

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Re: Help starting out...
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2014, 01:30:46 PM »
Ok, I'm going to go out on a limb here and just say it.

Don't start your Fate/DFRPG experience with a wizard.  Yes, it's powerful but if you don't have system mastery your vast range of options can grind things to a halt, plus it can be oddly fragile if you don't know how to manage your resources of both mental stress to power your spells and physical stress to soak damage+properly managing consequences.

Also you'll be blindsided by how aspect compels work, most likely.   Think of it as playing a 3.5 D&D Druid summoner with dire tiger animal companion, starting it at level 9 and handing it to a first-time player, along with a pile of source-books giving him a few score spells to decide to put in his slots, and a couple hundred critters he can summon, but with non-standard statblocks because he also has augment summoning.  It isn't likely to be the best intro to D&D for the player, or for the party.

Plus for all their power, a wizard really isn't much better than anybody else at getting things "done" in-game.  They just have a wider variety of flashy tools in any given situation.  The mortal with maxed diplomacy and resource type skills will often be better - just think about how Marcone seems to always have the upper hand over Dresden and it's generally Dresden going to Marcone for help, not the other way around - especially after the first couple of books when Marcone gets clued into the supernatural world and has had time to bring his resources to bear on the problem.  Still, sometimes even Marcone gets compelled by his prior choices and needs rescue.  Nobody wins them all in Fate.

The character you described would probably work better as just somebody with supernatural powers and skills.  That plus the aspects (which actually are a very large part of your character's "power" - you nave narrative power in this game system, which is as important or more important than objective physical power) are more than enough to learn the first time out.

For a frankenstein type character, you can actually take the -1 refresh "dead" power, giving you an animated corpse instead of a body, just to begin with.  You would have refresh to be tough, fast, strong and being life-challenged without actually being a vampire or something would cause you plenty of problems, which will likely translate into fate points that you can use to power aspects.

« Last Edit: September 30, 2014, 01:38:12 PM by solbergb »

Offline Periwinkles

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Re: Help starting out...
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2014, 02:18:08 PM »

As others have noted (and I suggest above) the adversarial-GM model is less-likely to work well in Fate.  I'd be particularly wary about the GM "making the combat impossible unless his DMNPC was fighting with us."

Have you (or other players) ever questioned the GM about that point?  To be brutally frank, I'd have talked to the GM, and probably wouldn't have stayed in that group for more than 1-2 more combats after that, if the problem persisted...
- Steve, the g33k

Yeah, he's the president of my uni's Tabletop gaming society, though only because he was best friends with the previous prez and got handed the position, no election or anything after he graduated. He wasn't particularly likeable, especially behind his DM screen. Whenever he rolled an attack against us he'd pick up the dice and roll again, sometimes even twice in a row until he could hit us (he once rolled four times in a row to hit my Con-based defensive Genasi swordmage) and would shoe-horn us tons. Also force reactions, like forcing a stout dwarven fighter to urinate herself from fear at the presence of this character he made and he messed with backstories loads. After my Genasi got auto-raped and killed by a band of orcs that ambushed her (it just happened out of the blue right after an encounter I'd survived solely due to lucky crits) I made a Drow/Eladrin hybrid character whose backstory he changed at least three times because his idea was cooler than mine...total bad times.

Basically the dresden files group are all people that quit because of that DM. Turns out my friend has lots of experience DMing so yeah.


I'm reading through all the stuff you guys have written me, and I'm getting super hyped now! My GM isn't too pleased with my character idea though, he says that the bodysnatcher concept would be hard to integrate into the game and the frankenstein thing is impossible, so there's that. I just text him another concept I came up with in a lecture and wanted to run it by you guys to see what you all thought.

Normal teenager/university student, huge fan of high fantasy books, movies and so on. Someone who can quote Tolkien and make Skyrim references. The kind of character that would scream 'fus roh dah' instead of 'fuego' because s/he just can. The kind that goes 'I knew it! Real vampires aren't anything like twilight vampires! This is awes-...shit this is bad, very, very bad...'. A sort of whimsical character that gets real excited about the supernatural before freaking out because shit just got real. Basically someone who isn't ordinarily involved, but involves themselves because they've grown up reading Terry Pratchett. The one everyone yells at to go home and live a normal life.

Now the character is sort of developed, I have an idea what kind of person they would be, however I'm not sure how a mundane would have made contact with the supernatural, let alone learn magic. One idea was that they notice some weird fliers and get lured into this warehouse where a dragon-worshipping cult is trying to sacrifice people to a dragon (if dragons exist in dresdenverse) in exchange for knowledge or something. Dragon gets pissed off, decides the cultists look yummy, eats them, and somehow or another doesn't mind the character enough to set them on the right path to becoming a wizard. Or perhaps some crazy homeless old bum teaches her evocation in exchange for food. Or some old grimoire found in a dusty old antique shop? I don't know @___@


Offline Haru

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Re: Help starting out...
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2014, 03:20:21 PM »
Normal teenager/university student, huge fan of high fantasy books, movies and so on. Someone who can quote Tolkien and make Skyrim references. The kind of character that would scream 'fus roh dah' instead of 'fuego' because s/he just can. The kind that goes 'I knew it! Real vampires aren't anything like twilight vampires! This is awes-...shit this is bad, very, very bad...'. A sort of whimsical character that gets real excited about the supernatural before freaking out because shit just got real. Basically someone who isn't ordinarily involved, but involves themselves because they've grown up reading Terry Pratchett. The one everyone yells at to go home and live a normal life.
That sounds far better, especially since you don't know the world too well yourself, you can discover it alongside your character.

Quote
Now the character is sort of developed, I have an idea what kind of person they would be, however I'm not sure how a mundane would have made contact with the supernatural, let alone learn magic. One idea was that they notice some weird fliers and get lured into this warehouse where a dragon-worshipping cult is trying to sacrifice people to a dragon (if dragons exist in dresdenverse) in exchange for knowledge or something. Dragon gets pissed off, decides the cultists look yummy, eats them, and somehow or another doesn't mind the character enough to set them on the right path to becoming a wizard. Or perhaps some crazy homeless old bum teaches her evocation in exchange for food. Or some old grimoire found in a dusty old antique shop? I don't know @___@
With all your planning, keep in mind that during character creation things can change a lot. It helps to see what kind of ideas the other players have, and go around to see how you can combine ideas for the best effect. That doesn't mean that I want to keep you from planning, but keep it loose enough to wiggle some additional ideas in there when you form the group.

That being said, one pretty easy way to get in touch with the supernatural would be to be attacked and rescued. Your character could have stumbled upon something. A vampire feeding on someone behind the library, where your character was too late to do anything, though he wouldn't even have been able to do anything. He decides to do some research and track down the vamp, still thinking this is kind of awesome, and he finds the lair, but of course he doesn't have a chance against the vamp. Luckily, one or more of the other characters had also been tracking the vampire and arrive only moments later and rescue you. Afterwards, they take you under their wing.

Or it could be something smaller, depending on how your group wants to take it. Maybe you decide on playing a small campus coven, so nobody would be all that powerful singlehandedly, but together you might be able to pull off some great rituals. Or you go for a campus shapeshifter group. Or just a group of individual powers getting together to fight the dark in their neck of the woods. All that can change your character to one degree or another.

You could also look into channeling, which is evocation's little sister. It can be pretty much exactly what evocation does, but limited to one element (like fire or water) or theme (like chloromancy, biomancy, ectomancy, etc). And it costs a bit less.

Or don't take any powers at all and slowly grow into it. Being a pure mortal has its advantages as well, and you can get pretty far with stunts, especially in the lower refresh games.
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Offline Periwinkles

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Re: Help starting out...
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2014, 03:49:16 PM »
That sounds far better, especially since you don't know the world too well yourself, you can discover it alongside your character.
With all your planning, keep in mind that during character creation things can change a lot. It helps to see what kind of ideas the other players have, and go around to see how you can combine ideas for the best effect. That doesn't mean that I want to keep you from planning, but keep it loose enough to wiggle some additional ideas in there when you form the group.

Yeah, I feel this one would be easier to more consistently portray because of how easy it would be to relate to that kind of character. From my limited experience roleplaying the biggest problem is consistency; I remember one player in DnD could never settle on an accent for his orc, who erratically switched from just leader to bloodthirsty brute or a wisecracking comedian. It really broke the spell so to speak. Though yeah, I'm going to come in with a couple of general ideas and a skill outline, simply because I'm the only newbie to fate based games and I don't want to hold things up unnecessarily. Even came up with a couple of aspects for the character:

The Movies Taught Me Everything I Know
Invoke: When she is attempting to uncover some kind of information, mundane or occult.
Compel: To cause her to come up with and/or believe incorrect information on a subject.

Aspect: Fish amongst Sharks
Invoke: To seem unimportant or not threatening to an enemy; Disguises; Defense rolls; Helping someone who is the underdog
Compel: Help the Underdog; Get taken advantage of; Get targeted as weak or helpless, not get taken seriously

and stuff like 'Nerd in Shining armour', 'Power of positive thinking', 'Brave...when I need to be' and so on. Coming up with this stuff and spells in itself is pretty fun.

Quote
That being said, one pretty easy way to get in touch with the supernatural would be to be attacked and rescued. Your character could have stumbled upon something. A vampire feeding on someone behind the library, where your character was too late to do anything, though he wouldn't even have been able to do anything. He decides to do some research and track down the vamp, still thinking this is kind of awesome, and he finds the lair, but of course he doesn't have a chance against the vamp. Luckily, one or more of the other characters had also been tracking the vampire and arrive only moments later and rescue you. Afterwards, they take you under their wing.

Or it could be something smaller, depending on how your group wants to take it. Maybe you decide on playing a small campus coven, so nobody would be all that powerful singlehandedly, but together you might be able to pull off some great rituals. Or you go for a campus shapeshifter group. Or just a group of individual powers getting together to fight the dark in their neck of the woods. All that can change your character to one degree or another.

This sounds funky! Say, you know Wardens, like that dude who was going to Damocles' Harry? Are they sort of like Wizard Sherriffs? Because one of those could easily run into my character and take her under his/her wing. Well, be practically forced into it as my character wouldn't take no for an answer and start stalking/pestering until they agreed to teach her magic. Sorry, I'm just not far enough into the book to know exactly how one gains a mentor @_@

Quote
You could also look into channeling, which is evocation's little sister. It can be pretty much exactly what evocation does, but limited to one element (like fire or water) or theme (like chloromancy, biomancy, ectomancy, etc). And it costs a bit less.

Or don't take any powers at all and slowly grow into it. Being a pure mortal has its advantages as well, and you can get pretty far with stunts, especially in the lower refresh games.

I was going to look into Evo+Ritual, which seems to be Thaumaturgy's little sister, though I'm open to the idea of Channeling. I'd probably pick spirit and go for kinetic punches, forcefields and illusion type things. What sort of stunts would you say are most useful?

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Help starting out...
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2014, 04:24:29 PM »
Wow, your old GM sounds unbelievably awful. I'm surprised that he even got through one session without the players leaving.

Offline Haru

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Re: Help starting out...
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2014, 04:48:17 PM »
Yeah, I feel this one would be easier to more consistently portray because of how easy it would be to relate to that kind of character. From my limited experience roleplaying the biggest problem is consistency; I remember one player in DnD could never settle on an accent for his orc, who erratically switched from just leader to bloodthirsty brute or a wisecracking comedian. It really broke the spell so to speak. Though yeah, I'm going to come in with a couple of general ideas and a skill outline, simply because I'm the only newbie to fate based games and I don't want to hold things up unnecessarily. Even came up with a couple of aspects for the character:

The Movies Taught Me Everything I Know
Invoke: When she is attempting to uncover some kind of information, mundane or occult.
Compel: To cause her to come up with and/or believe incorrect information on a subject.

Aspect: Fish amongst Sharks
Invoke: To seem unimportant or not threatening to an enemy; Disguises; Defense rolls; Helping someone who is the underdog
Compel: Help the Underdog; Get taken advantage of; Get targeted as weak or helpless, not get taken seriously

and stuff like 'Nerd in Shining armour', 'Power of positive thinking', 'Brave...when I need to be' and so on. Coming up with this stuff and spells in itself is pretty fun.
Yes, it is. :)
Looks good so far. A player of mine got "a minnow among sharks" as one of his aspects, that's making me smile right now. Make sure the aspects mean something. "Nerd in shining armor" could refer to your character being part of a medieval sword fighting club, for example.

If the rest of the group is more experienced, I'm sure they'll help you out, too. Are they already playing, or are you all going to be building city and characters when you join? If they are already playing, you might want to ask the GM about the other characters, and how yours might fit in.

Quote
This sounds funky! Say, you know Wardens, like that dude who was going to Damocles' Harry? Are they sort of like Wizard Sherriffs? Because one of those could easily run into my character and take her under his/her wing. Well, be practically forced into it as my character wouldn't take no for an answer and start stalking/pestering until they agreed to teach her magic. Sorry, I'm just not far enough into the book to know exactly how one gains a mentor @_@
Well, you find a wizard who is willing to take you on as an apprentice. That can involve asking nicely, blackmail, calling in a debt, family obligation, and so on. You could also look for a supernatural entity to teach you, though that can have all kind of complications beyond just an apprentices duties, so I suggest sticking with a mortal for now.

Wardens are the police, task force, enforcers, soldiers and all out heavy hitters of the White Council. They probably do take on apprentices on occasion, but their duties probably don't leave them much time to do some actual teaching. Of course an absent mentor kind of has a "sorcerers apprentice" ring to it, where he gives you some stuff to learn while he is gone, and that goes haywire. I would think the warden would need to be personally invested in your character for a reason that goes beyond reason, or he would probably rather stick you with another wizard. Maybe the warden is related to your character, even though you don't know it. He's your uncle or great uncle or something, or maybe even the father your character never knew, and he is afraid to open up, so you won't inherit his enemies in and outside the Council, but at the same time, he is watching you closely and gets involved as best he can.

Quote
I was going to look into Evo+Ritual, which seems to be Thaumaturgy's little sister, though I'm open to the idea of Channeling. I'd probably pick spirit and go for kinetic punches, forcefields and illusion type things. What sort of stunts would you say are most useful?
If you take ritual, I suggest going for something thematic. You can do most things you can do with thaumaturgy, even though you might have to get a bit creative. If you lock yourself into one type of thaumaturgy (like divination), it becomes a lot harder to be versatile with it.

On the topic of stunts, the answer is: depends. :D
You hear that a lot, but it's true. It all depends on who your character is and what he's good at. You could take a stunt for the "knowing movies" bit, allowing you to add +2 when rolling scholarship to remember facts about monsters you've seen in movies. There are no stunts for magic, by the way. That's done with the "refinement" power.
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Offline Periwinkles

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Re: Help starting out...
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2014, 07:39:12 PM »
Yes, it is. :)
Looks good so far. A player of mine got "a minnow among sharks" as one of his aspects, that's making me smile right now. Make sure the aspects mean something. "Nerd in shining armor" could refer to your character being part of a medieval sword fighting club, for example.

If the rest of the group is more experienced, I'm sure they'll help you out, too. Are they already playing, or are you all going to be building city and characters when you join? If they are already playing, you might want to ask the GM about the other characters, and how yours might fit in.
Well, you find a wizard who is willing to take you on as an apprentice. That can involve asking nicely, blackmail, calling in a debt, family obligation, and so on. You could also look for a supernatural entity to teach you, though that can have all kind of complications beyond just an apprentices duties, so I suggest sticking with a mortal for now.

Wardens are the police, task force, enforcers, soldiers and all out heavy hitters of the White Council. They probably do take on apprentices on occasion, but their duties probably don't leave them much time to do some actual teaching. Of course an absent mentor kind of has a "sorcerers apprentice" ring to it, where he gives you some stuff to learn while he is gone, and that goes haywire. I would think the warden would need to be personally invested in your character for a reason that goes beyond reason, or he would probably rather stick you with another wizard. Maybe the warden is related to your character, even though you don't know it. He's your uncle or great uncle or something, or maybe even the father your character never knew, and he is afraid to open up, so you won't inherit his enemies in and outside the Council, but at the same time, he is watching you closely and gets involved as best he can.
If you take ritual, I suggest going for something thematic. You can do most things you can do with thaumaturgy, even though you might have to get a bit creative. If you lock yourself into one type of thaumaturgy (like divination), it becomes a lot harder to be versatile with it.

On the topic of stunts, the answer is: depends. :D
You hear that a lot, but it's true. It all depends on who your character is and what he's good at. You could take a stunt for the "knowing movies" bit, allowing you to add +2 when rolling scholarship to remember facts about monsters you've seen in movies. There are no stunts for magic, by the way. That's done with the "refinement" power.

I love that idea! I'm definitely going with the idea of the absentee warden father! It could even be her trouble, "Daddy's little girl" or something. That there are people in the know, and who would love to use her as leverage against her father.

What exactly is refinement? How much refresh does it cost?
I had the idea that my character would have been bullied as a kid, so therefore knows how to handle herself in conflicts. Specifically, she's no stranger to people taking a swing at her, trying to trip her and so forth. So she'd have pretty good self-preservation instincts? Or maybe self-taught parkour?

Offline Periwinkles

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Re: Help starting out...
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2014, 08:28:43 PM »
Wow, your old GM sounds unbelievably awful. I'm surprised that he even got through one session without the players leaving.

We started the first session with a huge group of 20 people, the plot point was that we'd all received summons from this warlord type character. Someone you just cannot refuse and holds a lot of influence. Within five minutes, one character was forced to piss herself, two frothed at the mouth and fainted, and another got made an example of by...literally getting skullfucked. The group halved, and then dwindled to 4 players, now it's the DM and his two buddies who only play because they're flatmates and often cancel sessions by pretending to be busy and making other plans :/