Author Topic: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]  (Read 39206 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2014, 07:16:12 PM »
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Q:  How big will Toot get?
A:  Depends on how much influence he has in the world.  That’s how the sidhe gain their size and power.  Mab wasn’t always as big as she is now.
  But that implies that Mab may have been like Toot once.. Which contradicts her saying that she was once mortal.. Or was he speaking strictly metaphorically?

Offline Mira

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2014, 07:19:19 PM »
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     5. cowl with darkhallow - really? just a bunch of spirits...

If he'd succeeded, he'd have had the collective power of all of those supernatural beings and then some.  He'd have been clearly stronger than the Ladies, and a full-on equal to Mab.  I mean, why do you think the Erlking was summoned as part of that ritual?  Because that's how the big E got so boss in the first place. :)
  The Erlking did the darkhallow thing?

Offline aShorty21

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2014, 07:31:00 PM »
  The Erlking did the darkhallow thing?
The Erlking did gain much of his power through an assention ritual. Not necessasarily the specific assention ritual known as the Dark Hallow.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 07:34:35 PM by aShorty21 »
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Offline Serack

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2014, 07:31:55 PM »
  But that implies that Mab may have been like Toot once.. Which contradicts her saying that she was once mortal.. Or was he speaking strictly metaphorically?

Hence my using the terms confused and contradictory, and wanting to ask for clarification.

  The Erlking did the darkhallow thing?
Or something like it... looks like aShorty21 beat me to it.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 08:08:19 PM by Serack »
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Offline SAZ

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2014, 07:32:02 PM »
Mira – DVD? Blah, go to an outdoor theater!
Serack – if you are in the northern hemisphere and therefore approaching summer – there is usually some theater group or company somewhere doing a Midsummer’s Night’s Dream… pretty popular summer time fair.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2014, 08:15:52 PM »
The Erlking did gain much of his power through an assention ritual. Not necessasarily the specific assention ritual known as the Dark Hallow.
May not have been a mass ritual like that at all.  I figured that WOJ was more referring to the fact that he also took the power of a bunch of spirits, but more of an accumulation over time.  We know the guy has a yearly Hunt on Halloween.  Give him enough success at that and he would eventually reach critical mass.  Cowl was just trying to take a shortcut and do it all at once. 
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Offline aShorty21

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2014, 08:18:08 PM »
May not have been a mass ritual like that at all.  I figured that WOJ was more referring to the fact that he also took the power of a bunch of spirits, but more of an accumulation over time.  We know the guy has a yearly Hunt on Halloween.  Give him enough success at that and he would eventually reach critical mass.  Cowl was just trying to take a shortcut and do it all at once.
I could go either way on the "over time" or "all at once". I doubt that he started leading the Wild Hunt until after he became the Earlking though.
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Offline Serack

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2014, 08:20:10 PM »
May not have been a mass ritual like that at all.  I figured that WOJ was more referring to the fact that he also took the power of a bunch of spirits, but more of an accumulation over time.  We know the guy has a yearly Hunt on Halloween.  Give him enough success at that and he would eventually reach critical mass.  Cowl was just trying to take a shortcut and do it all at once.

Me, I think Jim is referring to a discrete ascension ritual here (followed by the haunts you refer to for fluctuations in power later), however, your interpretation is supported by the part of that WoJ I lopped off.

Quote
For that matter, how do you think the Mothers and Queens and Ladies established their original base of power?  That big old sacrificial, power-sucking stone table in Tir na noth isn't there for its primitive decorative aesthetic.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2014, 08:21:04 PM »
Mira – DVD? Blah, go to an outdoor theater!
Serack – if you are in the northern hemisphere and therefore approaching summer – there is usually some theater group or company somewhere doing a Midsummer’s Night’s Dream… pretty popular summer time fair.
  Oh, but I love the old 1930's movie version with ten year old Mickey Rooney as Puck!  The altered a little of it, but the story is still the same.  Oh and the special effects for the time are really amazing.  Otherwise yeah on stage version is also good..

Offline Quantus

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2014, 08:22:23 PM »
Not sure if the Erlking title came with him Immortality or not, but regardless he was a Hunter Spirit long before that I figure.  So he would have simply hunted and hunted, growing stronger and stronger, until he was able to do what harry did and take the "Lead" option instead of the "Join" option.  Harry proved you dont actually need to be an immortal to do that. 
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Offline Second Aristh

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2014, 10:11:03 PM »
Nice theory Serack.  I like it. 

Meh, in my mind, the most likely source of dew drop fairies is spontaneous generation from literal dew drops and such...  Possibly catalyzed by some spark of mortal imagination or some such.
That was my interpretation as well.  You might also want to incorporate (this information) into your theory.  It's one of the Paranet Papers, and it deals with a supposed Fountain of Youth in Florida connected to Summer.  Billy mentions "ambient magic" in the area.  I could certainly see that ambient magic playing a role similar to radiation mutating the susceptible locals.  The spontaneous generation/mutation theory also makes the spider fae from TC more palatable in my mind as well.
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Offline Orbweaver

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2014, 10:45:28 PM »
Is it possible that they cannot, but maybe the spawn of certain lesser fae start as dew drop? or maybe even all fae?
 Maybe even if Sarissa had chosen fae she would have been started at dew drop, but grew quickly due to being mabs daughter and an increase in responsibility or influence or Mountain Dew or what ever makes them grow in power and stature?

Mountain Dew. Herald of the nation of Fae. Harry would be furious that a Pepsi product took precedence over Coke.

Edit: Nice theory, Serack. However, I have a question regarding it.

If the Fae are largely accounted for as having been mortal at one point, we have Namshiel in SmF stating that he watched as Harry's "kind" crawled from the muck. While he may have been lying and/or deceptive in that instance, with the chance that he's telling the truth... perhaps the Sidhe and/or Dewdrop faeries ultimately formed from the same substance as well. The legends regarding the Fae's emergence often give no time or reference frame to humanity's emergence, to my knowledge. It would seem to make the most sense to take the one link of commonality that we know they have in the DF lore, via Jim, and work backwards from that, right?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 10:57:33 PM by Orbweaver »
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Offline Second Aristh

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2014, 11:27:33 PM »
If the Fae are largely accounted for as having been mortal at one point, we have Namshiel in SmF stating that he watched as Harry's "kind" crawled from the muck. While he may have been lying and/or deceptive in that instance, with the chance that he's telling the truth... perhaps the Sidhe and/or Dewdrop faeries ultimately formed from the same substance as well. The legends regarding the Fae's emergence often give no time or reference frame to humanity's emergence, to my knowledge. It would seem to make the most sense to take the one link of commonality that we know they have in the DF lore, via Jim, and work backwards from that, right?
I'm confused.  We have that angels are older than humanity, but as far as I know we don't have a time link to the origins of fae, do we?  Unless we say fae must have come along after humanity I suppose.  Is that what you're getting at?


Also, we have Eldest Gruff in SmF with this dealing with the age of the Fallen:
Quote from: Small Favor Ch.44
And a voice, a very deep, resonant voice, said, “Be thou gone from this place, creature. My quarrel is not with thee.”
Magog answered with a howl and spat out words in a language I did not understand.
“Be that as it may, Elder One,” the huge voice said, gently and with respect, “I also have a duty from which I may not waver. We need not be at odds this night. Depart in peace, Elder One, with your beast of burden.”
Magog snarled again in that foreign tongue.
The deep voice hardened. “I seek no quarrel with thee, Fallen One. I pray thee, do not mistake peaceable intention for weakness. I do not fear thee. Begone, or I will smite thee down.”

Besides Namshiel, I want to say that Lash mentions a couple of things about how ancient angels are, but I'd have to search pretty heavy to find them.
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Offline Orbweaver

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2014, 11:47:48 PM »
I'm confused.  We have that angels are older than humanity, but as far as I know we don't have a time link to the origins of fae, do we?  Unless we say fae must have come along after humanity I suppose.  Is that what you're getting at?


Also, we have Eldest Gruff in SmF with this dealing with the age of the Fallen:
Besides Namshiel, I want to say that Lash mentions a couple of things about how ancient angels are, but I'd have to search pretty heavy to find them.

I think that in order to discover the origins of the Fae in the DV, we need to figure out when they emerged into existence. For that, we do have a few (admittedly very vague) references as to when Humanity (mortals) came about, from sources like the Fallen and to a lesser extent, Bob. There is a link between mortality and the fae, so it would seem that the origins of the Fae are linked into the origin of humanity. If we can pinpoint when humanity began having an impact on DV reality, we *might* be able to discover where the fae broke off. Or if it's the other way around, and humanity evolved from the Fae, when mortality emerged out of the immortal.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 11:49:44 PM by Orbweaver »
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Offline Serack

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Re: Origins of the Sidhe (High Fae) [CD spoilers]
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2014, 12:58:51 AM »
Nice theory Serack.  I like it. 
Edit: Nice theory, Serack. However, I have a question regarding it.

As with most of the things I have ever posted, I feel like this is more a gathering of information than a theory, with the exceptions of a few minor conclusions at the end, and the stuff I said in the 1st reply. 

If the Fae are largely accounted for as having been mortal at one point, we have Namshiel in SmF stating that he watched as Harry's "kind" crawled from the muck. While he may have been lying and/or deceptive in that instance, with the chance that he's telling the truth... perhaps the Sidhe and/or Dewdrop faeries ultimately formed from the same substance as well. The legends regarding the Fae's emergence often give no time or reference frame to humanity's emergence, to my knowledge. It would seem to make the most sense to take the one link of commonality that we know they have in the DF lore, via Jim, and work backwards from that, right?

The one link I can easily cite is that Jim has said that every single Fae has a bit of mortal in them...  I'm not confident I understand what you are trying to work backwards towards from there though...

TCF and I are working together to do a major update to the WoJ compilation, and over the course of this work, several interesting WoJ's are coming forefront to my attention.  Two interesting ones that in some ways seem to be contradictory in my mind, and in other ways build off each other in interesting ways are:

(click to show/hide)

And here is another, older WoJ that is also pertinent:
(click to show/hide)

What does this mean, and how does it apply to the origins of the Fae?  Welllll, in terms of "the cosmic forces of the universe" these forces could be considered beings who "don't change"  yet, apparently Mortal, Free Will driven choices can determine their prominence in reality, to the point of altering which forces in a particular version of reality hold sway over that reality... 

Now for the actual theorizing...  This is dipping into my "Mantle Theory" ideas, something that I'm working hard to make a major post about in the next month or so.

So what if some of these choices made by those with free will that cause certain cosmic powers to come to prominence in reality also involve taking on some of the aspects, powers and responsibilities of these cosmic powers/entities.  And one of the flavors of how this could have happened in the past, could have involved changing some of these pivotal mortals into Sidhe.

Now for another what-if, which IMO is not as pivotal but is a deliberate nod to some of what Orbweaver seems to be looking towards.  What if there was another ancient human-like race hewn from the muck of Earth in parallel with the human race.  This hypothetical race also possessed free will, and in making some of these reality deterministic choices they were the ones that morphed into the Sidhe and took on those roles and responsibilities.

In my opinion, this last what-if adds some unnecessary but interesting complexity to the DF back-story.  I prefer to stick with the Sidhe originally being humans, but it certainly is a valid hypothesis.

Edit:  I think I will be splicing some of these thoughts into the 1st reply.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 01:10:18 AM by Serack »
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