Author Topic: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes  (Read 27732 times)

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2014, 04:40:33 PM »
You missed a new source: DR and the Warden mantle.

True, I did not connect all the dots up there for what I was thinking, sorry about that.

I am speculatively positing that Demonreach exists in the first place by virtue of Odin advising Merlin that it would be a good idea and how to do it.  And that Demonreach and the position of Warden of Demonreach may have been set up the way they were as a place to plug the Swiss Army Chainsaw into.

There was a suggestion a few months ago, and annoyingly I forget whose it was, that the location of the Stone Table in Chicago above Chicago in SK, and the location of Harry's dream of Malcolm in DB, are both echoes of Demonreach.  I like that and I can see it fitting with the Team UMO idea - I am pretty convinced Malcolm in DB is an agent of Uriel's.

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  And possibly a small buff from the wild hunt, afterall thomas picked up a LITTLE somethin somethin (enhanced senses maybe? he seems... sharper I guess after DB) and he just joined up.  Harry didn't just join it, he led it for a bit.  At the behest of santa odin and Herne who pretty much shanghaied him into it.  Maybe a slightly tougher buff? 

Perhaps. The impression I have of what the Wild Hunt did for Thomas was that it basically forced him to confront his nature and cleared his head some about stuff he always could have done but was leery of; not seeing any reason it could not have been the sort of buff you describe either, though.

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Is there any sort of WOJ on how harry picked up TOOTs true name?  Cause toot has saved his bacon a number of times.

Not that I recall.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2014, 04:50:39 PM »
That would seem entirely workable to me, but not really functionally distinguishable from sitting down and planning together in terms of how it affects the plot of the books at Harry's level.
The functional difference come in when you start assuming a greater level of shared information outside of the specific instances where you have have evidence of collaboration and/or a common interest. 

Only one has anything close to "omniscient-level omniscience" and in that case JB was very specific to explain that Intellectus is distinct and less than Omniscience.  Odin had, in the myths Im aware of at least, what amounted to a Prophetic vision that has guided his actions (while being hung from the world-tree after sacrificing his Eye), and then had some magical artifacts and minions that kept him apprised of current events by more traditional means.  And Mab doesnt have Intellectus, she's just a clever bitch. 

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Maybe indeed.  I had been thinking, though, that Captain Jack, in GS, motivates Harry by warning him about three of his friends being due to be broken, maimed or killed if he does not go back; this is someone who works for Uriel doing something that attains Uriel's desired end, which Uriel itself cannot do and appears to verbally reprimand him for.  I'm positing that, much as part of the point of a Faerie Knight appears to be for Faerie to have an agent who can exercise free will for Faerie ends in ways Faerie themselves cannot, Uriel having mortals working for him derives similar benefit - and Nicodemus maybe counting under the same logic Captain Jack does.
When you say counting under the same logic so you mean in the sense of the the Host provides his fallen with a Loophole, or that he is counted as one of Uriel's Minions?
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2014, 05:08:03 PM »
My main contention is in characterizing Mab as (knowing/willing) part of that alliance.  Correct me if Im wrong, but the only evidence you site that she is working with them is that bit from bob in GS.  But Bob's theory that they were working together was purely based on the fact that there was an unusually long winter indicating that she was still in town.

I don't have the text to hand, being in work right now; are you sure of that ? I thought that conversation came just after Harry mentioning that he'd had a long conversation with Bob that isn't in the text verbatim, implicitly about events we've already seen, and that the point I made in the original post about Uriel's reaction to being summoned and how that pushes Harry towards choosing to summon Mab could well be relevant there.  I'm not recalling that the excessive winter confirming mab is around in Chicago was in that conversation at all, though I could well be wrong/

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Which we later learned was because Uriel had, apparently against her wishes, taken Harry's soul on walkabout, forcing her to sit still on earth and give mouth-to-mouth to a human for months, out of season and at great personal strain.  All so he could teach her new pet that he she was mistaken in her belief that she could mold him at her whim.  And in this case at least we can be certain that she was not simply misleading him as part of some greater manipulation, since we have a WOJ that she was being entirely Truthful, and just happened to be entirely Wrong.  If it were all a collaborative scheme between her and Uriel, that could not have been the case. 

The "apparently against her wishes" there strikes me as rather clever.

Mab says she's cross with Uriel for sending Harry's soul walkabout.  She also says that had Harry not made it through that he'd have been lost and gone forever.  She puts those two sentences right next to each other and leaves Harry and us to infer a causal linkage.  However, the grammatical form "had Harry died as a wandering soul, he'd have been gone forever" (I paraphrase from memory) is the same as "had I a billion dollars free and clear of obligation, I know exactly which good causes would receive the first $800 million of it"; it can be (and in my case is) perfectly true without requiring me to actually have a billion dollars, or for it to be a remotely plausible eventuality that I might have any time soon.

I think "She cannot change who you are" makes sense because Mab and Uriel see the universe in very very different ways.  Mab cares about results.  Uriel cares about choices.  Mab's is an ethic of consequence, Uriel's one of free will.  I'm not seeing that the ways the Winter mantle may change Harry matter a bent penny to Mab except to the extent that they make Harry more likely to do what she asks of him without qualm.

We have the evidence of SmF that Mab can seriously change the range of options Harry is aware of, and in so doing, guide the choices he makes toward a desired end.  This does not seem to count as a violation of free will, at least at the scale at which Uriel cares about and is allowed/required to oppose such violations.  We know from BR (and I can never remember whether this is Harry having breakfast with Kincaid and Murphy, or the screen with Harry and Bob immediately before; it's the conversation about Renfields) that it is possible for humans to be enthralled with such a fine touch that they do not even notice.  Harry does not notice Mab messing with his memory in SmF; it takes Molly looking through his mind to find it, it takes Michael being suspicious that Harry has not lost Lasciel's shadow after all to motivate that search, and even when the mental block is found, Harry actively cannot resist or overcome it by will alone; that takes Michael's prayer, which looks to me like direct divine intervention.

The take-home message at the end of the day would appear to be: Mab can't change what Harry is in the sense Uriel cares about.  But apart from that, she has pretty much free rein to manipulate what he does, which is what she cares about. 

And what that achieves, that benefits all participants of Team UMO, is a Winter Knight who is willing to go along with being Winter Knight for the moment, rather than engaging in elaborate suicide attempts, because he is under the impression that Mab not being able to change who he is means he can meaningfully resist her wanting him to do something he finds objectionable.  Harry saying "I will go along with this for the moment and make trouble if i see a need for it" is much more productive than Harry saying "I'm not doing any of this under any circumstances because it makes me a monster", and I think we have plenty of evidence for Mab's ability to convince Harry to do what she wants in any specific case where that's important (as seen in SK and SmF.)
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 06:24:18 PM by the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh »
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #48 on: March 13, 2014, 05:09:31 PM »
Without Harry's interference, Corpsetaker was going to take over Molly, aka Faerie Lady Failsafe #2. That is unacceptable, so Harry's actions in GS did serve Mab's interests.

Good point; I hadn't thought of that, but it's another thing that aligns neatly with this theory.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 05:14:07 PM by the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh »
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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #49 on: March 13, 2014, 05:11:16 PM »
Still, I don't really see this as a long standing alliance. Because I don't think Uriel and Winter really interact, until we get to a certain point. I think the alliance, if it exists, probably only really came into existence with the party at Bianca's place - and perhaps afterwards, when Lea's infection was apparent. After which, I assume Uriel and Mab got together and realised: Oh shit, the Adversary very nearly fucked the both of us, didn't it?

That would require a remarkable lack of forethought from interests both of whom have definite connection with Harry's life before then, and both of whom are supposedly to be some combination of superhumanly intelligent and foresighted.
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Offline Agravaine

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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2014, 05:15:15 PM »
Nice theory, really like it.  UMO have definitely worked on this a long time.  You can add DR and Herne to the A-Team as well now.

So let's go back to the dinner of future woe.  I don't think that there's any evidence that Justin was at the dinner.  However, I do agree that Justin figured out the Star Born plan and worked hard to coopt it for himself.  If they are as rare as they seem to be, it was quite a coup for Justin to have Harry AND Elaine under his influence.  Lea watched over Harry, I wonder who watched over Elaine?

Anyway, I think that the implication of the evidence surrounding the Dinner points more to some kind of White Council Reform plan.  She wanted to change the Council, had not enough support within it and thought she could use outside pressure groups -- The Whites, The Reds, etc. to affect change.  She probably figured that her Father, being somewhat of a renegade himself would be more open to the possibility. 

I believe that after Eb didn't cooperate, she started having second thoughts and tried to work free of LR. Perhaps she realized the danger she was putting everyone in (at least according to Luccio). 

In short, the Starborn plan was something that she came to later -- after she had been on the run for a few years.  Justin was likely one of her former (few) allies on the council and may have confided in him.  Maggie may have even made Justin Harry's Godfather, which is why Eb never collected him. 

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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #51 on: March 13, 2014, 05:21:44 PM »
The functional difference come in when you start assuming a greater level of shared information outside of the specific instances where you have have evidence of collaboration and/or a common interest. 

I find it more plausible that the scales of tactical collaboration, or at least, joint efforts that contribute towards a common goal, we see in the text are part of a larger strategic collaboration than otherwise.

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Only one has anything close to "omniscient-level omniscience" and in that case JB was very specific to explain that Intellectus is distinct and less than Omniscience.

Yeah, you have to think of the question to get the answer in the first place.

One thing I really want to know is whether it is possible for a being with intellectus to deliberately avoid thinking of a specific question in order not to have the answer.  I am inclined to think not, and I think that has implications for how much Uriel knows about Harry's likely reaction to their conversations given that Uriel kind of has to be thinking about talking to Harry while actually talking to Harry.

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  Odin had, in the myths Im aware of at least, what amounted to a Prophetic vision that has guided his actions (while being hung from the world-tree after sacrificing his Eye), and then had some magical artifacts and minions that kept him apprised of current events by more traditional means.  And Mab doesnt have Intellectus, she's just a clever bitch.

If some degree of pooling underlying intelligence is accepted, then information any one team member gets from intellectus is plausibly available to any team member.

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When you say counting under the same logic so you mean in the sense of the the Host provides his fallen with a Loophole, or that he is counted as one of Uriel's Minions?

I am positing Nicodemus, the host, counting as a minion of Uriel in this context, in  a way not directly connected to anything Anduriel is doing.  (And in a way he maybe hopes to parlay into sainthood; an incidental but vital role in saving the universe during the BAT by preparing Harry might not be a bad start towards that objective.)
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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #52 on: March 13, 2014, 05:33:21 PM »
Nice theory, really like it.  UMO have definitely worked on this a long time.  You can add DR and Herne to the A-Team as well now.

I think they are plausibly allies at this point but am not seeing anything to tie them in to the larger plan from the get-go. (Unless you count DR's existence as indirectly a consequence of Odin mentoring Merlin.)

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So let's go back to the dinner of future woe.  I don't think that there's any evidence that Justin was at the dinner.  However, I do agree that Justin figured out the Star Born plan and worked hard to coopt it for himself.

We don't know whether Justin was at that dinner, and I'm inclined to guess he wasn't; we know he abducted Bob during the final fall of Kemmler which, whether the dates in DB or GS turn out to be right, is I think before that meeting.  We do however know from Eb in BR that Justin was a known associate of Maggie. 

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  If they are as rare as they seem to be, it was quite a coup for Justin to have Harry AND Elaine under his influence.  Lea watched over Harry, I wonder who watched over Elaine?

I would guess, someone from Summer. From what Mab says in her first appearance in SK, having a hold over Harry is a significant thing for Lea and her standing within Winter, and there is a balance to be kept; and why it was Summer that Elaine ran to is the same scale of question as why it was lea that Harry ran to.

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Anyway, I think that the implication of the evidence surrounding the Dinner points more to some kind of White Council Reform plan.  She wanted to change the Council, had not enough support within it and thought she could use outside pressure groups -- The Whites, The Reds, etc. to affect change.

Looking at what we know of the more conservative elements of the Senior Council, I'm not seeing how on Earth it's plausible that Maggie might think the opinions of the vampire courts are going to be taken into account or make a difference there.

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  She probably figured that her Father, being somewhat of a renegade himself would be more open to the possibility. 

I think it makes more sense that (presuming she knew he was Blackstaff, which is not something i recall evidence on either way) knowing he had licence to, and experience with, operating outside the Laws would have made him seem open to the possibility of the degree of playing fast and loose with knowledge about Outsiders it would take to create an anti-Outsider weapon.

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I believe that after Eb didn't cooperate, she started having second thoughts and tried to work free of LR. Perhaps she realized the danger she was putting everyone in (at least according to Luccio). 

Maybe. I am much more inclined to think that Luccio's description of Maggie as political agitator occurs before Maggie left the Council and took up with company such as Justin and Lord Raith. 

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Maggie may have even made Justin Harry's Godfather, which is why Eb never collected him.

Pshaw, and Pbeckett and Pwilde as well.  Harry's Godfather is obviously Marcone.
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Offline Tami Seven

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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #53 on: March 13, 2014, 05:39:51 PM »
Marcone is Everybody's Godfather.
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Offline ballplayer72

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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #54 on: March 13, 2014, 05:48:04 PM »
True, I did not connect all the dots up there for what I was thinking, sorry about that.

I am speculatively positing that Demonreach exists in the first place by virtue of Odin advising Merlin that it would be a good idea and how to do it.  And that Demonreach and the position of Warden of Demonreach may have been set up the way they were as a place to plug the Swiss Army Chainsaw into.

There was a suggestion a few months ago, and annoyingly I forget whose it was, that the location of the Stone Table in Chicago above Chicago in SK, and the location of Harry's dream of Malcolm in DB, are both echoes of Demonreach.  I like that and I can see it fitting with the Team UMO idea - I am pretty convinced Malcolm in DB is an agent of Uriel's.

Perhaps. The impression I have of what the Wild Hunt did for Thomas was that it basically forced him to confront his nature and cleared his head some about stuff he always could have done but was leery of; not seeing any reason it could not have been the sort of buff you describe either, though.

Not that I recall.

Yeah putting it in chicago more than a 1000 years before america is even thought about seems to indicate some long term planning to me as well.  Especially with the odin merlin connection.

In PG I think it was, Thomas notes he can SENSE the wild hunt coming from afar.  He mentions he'd been "different" IIRC since joining up.  And not a "i'm more in touch with the Hunger" different, you'd think he'd just say that, but just a "i'm different" thing.  Couple that with his apparent increase in badass level from GP/DM/BR- then see PG when he is vastly improved (to my mind at least.  )   And further into WN he is 2nd only to lara who is CENTURIES his senior.  That's quite a boost.  I always figured the Hunt had a little something to do with it. 

Too bad.  It doesn't mention how long he's had the name either.  Might be interesting if Toots name and maybe simple instructions on the trap were something Lea had given him.  Even more interesting if its something he learned from justin or eb.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #55 on: March 13, 2014, 06:02:49 PM »
One thing I really want to know is whether it is possible for a being with intellectus to deliberately avoid thinking of a specific question in order not to have the answer.  I am inclined to think not, and I think that has implications for how much Uriel knows about Harry's likely reaction to their conversations given that Uriel kind of has to be thinking about talking to Harry while actually talking to Harry.
Hmm, Can an Angel practice denial?  Interesting Question.  In a case like Harry's intellectus, Id say its easily possible, all one would have to do is trust their own assumptions.  But if Uriel's Intellectus is as broadly emcompassing as I think, and more importantly he is a being that has never NOT had it, then is it even possible for him to make an "assumption"?  But if his every possible thought is instantly verified by the Intellectis Akashic Universal Truth, where does his personality and individuality come in? Why is he not simply a personification of the Universe itself?  Or is that what his boss is?
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If some degree of pooling underlying intelligence is accepted, then information any one team member gets from intellectus is plausibly available to any team member.
See thats where you loose me, because you make the leap from "Some degree of information sharing" to "All available information resources are freely available to all member at all times".  NOBODY shares information that freely.  And in Mab's case at least she is fundamentally incapable of it, because her nature requires an exchange of equal value every time. 
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I am positing Nicodemus, the host, counting as a minion of Uriel in this context, in  a way not directly connected to anything Anduriel is doing.  (And in a way he maybe hopes to parlay into sainthood; an incidental but vital role in saving the universe during the BAT by preparing Harry might not be a bad start towards that objective.)
Do you see much distinction between Minion and Catspaw? Because to me Minion implies that both parties are knowingly and willingly participating.  I could see Nic being Played by Uriel, But Im not as much as a willing subordinate.  The Sainthood thing offers a motive for him cooperate when he otherwise probably wouldnt, but I personally took his Sainthood aspirations to be more about Heaven getting a change of Leadership that would have a different set of Chosen. (which would also be scarily cool)



I don't have the text to hand, being in work right now; are you sure of that ? I thought that conversation came just after Harry mentioning that he'd had a long conversation with Bob that isn't in the text verbatim, implicitly about events we've already seen, and that the point I made in the original post about Uriel's reaction to being summoned and how that pushes Harry towards choosing to summon Mab could well be relevant there.  I'm not recalling that the excessive winter confirming mab is around in Chicago was in that conversation at all, though I could well be wrong/
Yup, I looked it up after reading your post:

the complete conversation:
(click to show/hide)
Bob is specifically saying that he only thinks Mabs' involved simply because she is in town, and seems to be specifically saying that IF they are working together its more of a one-time Marvel team-up sort of deal.  He goes on to say that in the same way all the players are involved (Fomor, servators, Aristedes) but not that they are all on the same team, just on the same gameboard. 
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Offline Fangz

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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #56 on: March 13, 2014, 07:47:10 PM »
That would require a remarkable lack of forethought from interests both of whom have definite connection with Harry's life before then, and both of whom are supposedly to be some combination of superhumanly intelligent and foresighted.

Not a lack of forethought, maybe they just weren't playing attention. Both of them have a lot of balls to juggle. Michael was 'off the clock', while Harry was a personal interest of Lea, and Lea might be withholding details from Mab.

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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2014, 08:01:07 PM »
Not a lack of forethought, maybe they just weren't playing attention. Both of them have a lot of balls to juggle.

I think your assessment of how their capacities compare with the amount of stuff they have to follow is very different from mine, then. I can entirely see Mab and Uriel both keeping track of many orders of magnitude more things at any given time than any human could.

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Michael was 'off the clock',

When he first met Harry ?  I don't recall anything specifying that.

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while Harry was a personal interest of Lea, and Lea might be withholding details from Mab.

At very least Mab knows enough about Harry to know it's worth obtaining a hold on Harry from Lea between GP and SK.  I have difficulty imagining his existence and a rough idea of his capacities being unknown to her considering that Maggie was so familiar with Faerie as to get a whole new surname from it; on the whole it seems more plausible to me that Mab was aware of whatever plans Maggie was into from early on.
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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2014, 08:10:50 PM »
Yeah putting it in chicago more than a 1000 years before america is even thought about seems to indicate some long term planning to me as well.

Either that or he had something really big going on with the mound-builder civilisations that failed  spectacularly, I suppose.

(Nicodemus with his plague habit connected to collapse and death of native American cultures on contact with European diseases ?  The Little Ice Age starting when all those Native Americans weren't using fires and in many cases slash-and-char agriculture and ending when the Industrial Revolution started replenishing those greenhouse gases again as an echo of stuff going on in Faerie ?  Interesting direction, but not enough ahd data to go on.)

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In PG I think it was, Thomas notes he can SENSE the wild hunt coming from afar.  He mentions he'd been "different" IIRC since joining up. 

OK, I had forgotten that, and that certainly counts as a boost more than just psychological.

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  And further into WN he is 2nd only to lara who is CENTURIES his senior.  That's quite a boost.  I always figured the Hunt had a little something to do with it. 

I don't think we have any real evidence to distinguish that from Thomas always having been that good and just going to great lengths to hide it, though.  It's pretty clear that he's been doing the "useless party animal" act for a long time to avoid being taken as a threat. (I can see Maggie planning Thomas being as strong a White Court vampire as she could make him, and being born on Valentine's Day seems like it should give him a boost there too.)
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Offline Tami Seven

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Re: Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes
« Reply #59 on: March 13, 2014, 08:36:16 PM »
Either that or he had something really big going on with the mound-builder civilisations that failed  spectacularly, I suppose.

(Nicodemus with his plague habit connected to collapse and death of native American cultures on contact with European diseases ?  The Little Ice Age starting when all those Native Americans weren't using fires and in many cases slash-and-char agriculture and ending when the Industrial Revolution started replenishing those greenhouse gases again as an echo of stuff going on in Faerie ?  Interesting direction, but not enough ahd data to go on.)

OK, I had forgotten that, and that certainly counts as a boost more than just psychological.

I don't think we have any real evidence to distinguish that from Thomas always having been that good and just going to great lengths to hide it, though.  It's pretty clear that he's been doing the "useless party animal" act for a long time to avoid being taken as a threat. (I can see Maggie planning Thomas being as strong a White Court vampire as she could make him, and being born on Valentine's Day seems like it should give him a boost there too.)

My own personal assumption was that the Erlking and the Wildhunt targeted Thomas in DB in order to get even with Harry. However, and here is a wild thought. Maybe the Erlking, like Mab, has been in on this whole Starborn thing from the beginning. Maybe the Erlking knew, not only that Thomas was Harry's brother, but that not only was it important for the Starborn to be stronger, but that it was important for the Starborn's brother to be stronger as well.

What if the Erlking took advantage of an opportunity to go after Thomas in order to give him the choice, hide, flee or join. Getting Thomas to join, meant that the Erlking could influence him in such a way as to give him a power boost.

Then there is the Archive (Not necessarily Ivy), who might also be in on this in her own way. Choosing Thomas to be a Venator meant giving him a pathway to becoming stronger as well.

Of course, Mab seems to think she has rights over, not only Harry but Thomas also. Who knows where that might lead.

Maybe this is bigger than we realize, only we don't see the whole picture yet.

War Cry -
"Thomas doesn't fight back, not even for an instant. In the end, it's not common sense that pulls me back from the brink, or even fear of being devoured by the Shoggoth....It's the look of unshakeable trust in my Brother's eyes, even as my hands tighten around his throat."