Author Topic: Harry's murders of Non-humans! (Cold Days spoilers)  (Read 29168 times)

Offline Karthak

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Harry's murders of Non-humans! (Cold Days spoilers)
« on: November 05, 2013, 03:25:46 PM »
Curator note:  I changed the title of this topic to make it easier to find as a reference later.  The original title was:
Something from the beginning of Cold Days that really bothered me(spoilers, duh) -Serack


When he's laying down the law to the winter court:
My voice echoed throughout the whole chamber as clearly as if I’d been using a PA system. “All right, you primitive screwheads. Listen up. I’m Harry Dresden. I’m the new Winter Knight. I’m instituting a rule: When you’re within sight of me, mortals are off-limits.” I paused for a moment to let that sink in. Then I continued. “I can’t give you orders. I can’t control what you do in your own domains. I’m not going to be able to change you. I’m not even going to try. But if I see you abusing a mortal, you’ll join Chunky here. Zero warnings. Zero excuses. Subzero tolerance.”
I paused again and then asked, “Any questions?” One of the Sidhe smirked and stepped forward, his leather pants creaking. He opened his mouth, his expression condescending. “Mortal, do you actually think that you can—” “Infriga!” I snarled, unleashing Winter again, and without waiting for the cloud to clear, hurled the second strike, shouting, “Forzare!” This time I aimed much of the force up. Grisly bits of frozen Sidhe noble came pattering and clattering down to the ice of the dance floor.


When I first read this I did a mental double-take. Harry committed murder there. Seriously, he straight up murdered a sapient being for the crime of disagreeing with him, and somehow it's okay because it was a Sidhe, not a human. And nobody calls him out on it. There have been other instances of speciesism in the series, but this takes the cake.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 06:30:53 PM by Serack »

Offline raidem

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And nobody calls him out on it.
I called him out on it.  Let me find that post. 

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Morally it is still wrong to kill a Sidhe unless you have very good reasons. They are intelligent living beings and not all of them are evil.

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I hope Harry starts to feel more compassion for those he kills that are of the sidhe.  The wall between killing a sidhe and killing a mortal seems to be weakened each time he kills one of the Fae.
Of course, Mab is fine with it.  She is quite happy with her Monster in Traning.  Inez would be so proud.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,39549.msg1947806.html#msg1947806
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 03:45:22 PM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline gotetsu

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« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 02:34:03 PM by gotetsu »

Offline Hollorr

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I called him out on it.  Let me find that post. 

there actual a thread about all of harry crimes...

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When I first read this I did a mental double-take. Harry committed murder there. Seriously, he straight up murdered a sapient being for the crime of disagreeing with him, and somehow it's okay because it was a Sidhe, not a human. And nobody calls him out on it. There have been other instances of speciesism in the series, but this takes the cake.

let me find the thread..I'm pretty sure someone else called him out on it as well.

Offline Hollorr

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gah I can't find it atm...I shall look for it later..I don't have the time.. but I did find

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19774.0.html

Offline Rasins

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WAIT a second here.

Harry committed no crime.

Winter Law, which is where Harry was operating at the time allows such displays of power.  There was no crime.  Mab, the ruler of said realm, even approves.

Now from a human point of view and from a Human Morality view, it may have been wrong, but it in no way was a crime.
At times I wish I had a clone, but then I realize, I could never live with that a-hole.

DV Rasins 2006 BK+++ RP++ JB++++ TH++++ WG+(+?) CL SW++ BC- MC---

Offline Serack

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SPOILER........

(click to show/hide)

Click the button to the top right of your post that says "modify," highlight the portion of your post that is spoiler, click the button with the radioactive sign.  You can designate it as Skin Game spoilers like I did in the above quote by typing "=Skin Game" after the word spoiler (first instance) in the code that that button generates.

Have the ability to do it for you as well, but I prefer to have permission first since I'm not an official mod of this part of the boards.

P.S.  You pointed out exactly what I was going to point out :)  Although I wasn't 100% certain that was in the first 4 chapters
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 03:57:25 PM by Serack »
DF WoJ Compilation
Green is my curator voice.
Name dropping "Serack" in a post /will/ draw my attention to it

*gnaws on the collar of his special issue Beta Foo long-sleeved jacket*

Offline raidem

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We aren't arguing that Harry committed a crime.  We are arguing that from a human morality viewpoint, what he did was wrong.  Harry is all concerned about himself going bad.  It will start with him abusing the sidhe and then from there get worse. 

I have wondered if perhaps Harry's instructions to Cat Sith or Harry's new rule led to Cat Sith being susceptible to a mortal who infects him.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 03:56:10 PM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline Tami Seven

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WAIT a second here.

Harry committed no crime.

Winter Law, which is where Harry was operating at the time allows such displays of power.  There was no crime.  Mab, the ruler of said realm, even approves.

Now from a human point of view and from a Human Morality view, it may have been wrong, but it in no way was a crime.

The First kill may have been sanctioned by Mab for the crime of spilling blood. The second might have been crossing the line.
War Cry -
"Thomas doesn't fight back, not even for an instant. In the end, it's not common sense that pulls me back from the brink, or even fear of being devoured by the Shoggoth....It's the look of unshakeable trust in my Brother's eyes, even as my hands tighten around his throat."

Offline Rasins

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The First kill may have been sanctioned by Mab for the crime of spilling blood. The second might have been crossing the line.

I would argue that the second was sanctioned by Mab as well, by the fact that she then danced with Harry.  In Mab's realm Power is the law.  Harry was establishing where he was on the Power scale, and Mab approved of it.
At times I wish I had a clone, but then I realize, I could never live with that a-hole.

DV Rasins 2006 BK+++ RP++ JB++++ TH++++ WG+(+?) CL SW++ BC- MC---

Offline raidem

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I would argue that the second was sanctioned by Mab as well, by the fact that she then danced with Harry.  In Mab's realm Power is the law.  Harry was establishing where he was on the Power scale, and Mab approved of it.
The fact that something may or may not be sanctioned by Mab doesn't absolve Harry from right or wrong in the matter.  I suspect Mab would quite approve of a Harry that becomes a monster. 
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline Hollorr

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We aren't arguing that Harry committed a crime.  We are arguing that from a human morality viewpoint, what he did was wrong.  Harry is all concerned about himself going bad.  It will start with him abusing the sidhe and then from there get worse. 

I have wondered if perhaps Harry's instructions to Cat Sith or Harry's new rule led to Cat Sith being susceptible to a mortal who infects him.

I know that! I recall someone else calling him out on it about the fairy death was overkill or went over the line. If I recall correctly it was in the thread about harry list of crimes.
so I have to find the quote.

Offline raidem

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Did you see the link that I included to where I talked about it under the "apprentices" thread.
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline SAZ

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Sidhe killing Sidhe is not likely that uncommon. Harry is a member of the winter court, and therefore likely considered Sidhe for the purpose of inter faerie relations, laws and customs.

Would this kind of behavior normally be tolerated during a social function of Mab’s? We don’t know, but I think at this point Mab is still taking measure of her new knight, judging the boundaries and ethics Harry is going to try and work within as Winter Knight. The loss of one Sidhe Lord among likely thousands is not that big a deal from her POV.

Would this mean Harry is tainted but breaking one of the laws of magic? No. The black magic taint only applies when killing mortals. Killing Sidhe is no more taint worthy than killing a vampire. Also it is unclear if the black magic taint would apply if Harry used winter power to kill a mortal… as any one asked JB that question?

Does this mean Harry is getting colder and more ruthless? Yep, Mab in general is happy with Harry’s development, even if she might have preferred not losing the Sidhe Lord.

Sapient… well yes, but (I’ve said this before) the DV seems to be “soul centric” meaning it is not Star trek the Next Generation wherein all intelligent life is honored and treated with respect by a Federation with open arms… it seems that only the mortals with souls seem to count… at least form the narrative we have seen so far. In general killing soulless monsters is Ok.

Last night I had a vision. The World in flames. Terror and death spreading across the globe in an unstoppable wave, destroying anything resembling order or civilization. At the center of it – I saw Mister. Sitting there grooming himself, looking disinterested.

Offline Hollorr

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Did you see the link that I included to where I talked about it under the "apprentices" thread.
nope I didn't but I see it now.