Newbies ask the darnest things

[PirateJack]

That's more of a Take Out effect than an Invoke for Effect, in my mind. That said, it's entirely down to your group whether you allow invokes for effect that much leeway. Theoretically you could ignore every other mechanic in the game and just run it through invokes for effect, so it's up to you how far you want to go with them.

Personally, I'd say that kind of effect would at least require a consequence rather than a manoeuvre. Of course if you just want to force him to pass a discipline test to fight or be out of the fight for a round or two, that would be more in the scope of an IFE. In my opinion.

[Haru]

Well, a tag for effect is basically a compel, and as such, it can easily be "you lose the fight", so that's well within how things are intended to work.

A tag for effect is not an action, and as such can be done any time. Of course there's always the caveat of "it should make sense to the group".

[Mr. Death]

"You lose the fight," is being taken out. As a GM, I'd allow the compel to be that the guy can't take effective action for a couple rounds, but invoking for effect to take someone out is kind of cheating the rules.

[Taran]

So I have learned quite a bit about Invoking Aspects, Invoking for Effect & Compels this week, partly by reading a thread where Fred explained that Tags can be used to Invoke for Effect.

My question is this, can you Invoke for Effect after you perform an action but before your turn ends?

For example:

Mack the Monster Hunter uses his Shotgun and Weapons roll to place the aspect "Shaken Badly" on a BadGuy.  Can the player then immediately Tag "Shaken Badly" to Invoke for Effect and suggest that the BadGuy is now out of the fight, cowering on the floor? 

Or, does Mack have to wait until his next turn to do so or to pass the Tag to another PC who can then Invoke for Effect to suggest removing BadGuy from the fight in the same way?

Thanks all!  Slowly getting this system down.

~ GiS

You can invoke for effect anytime. For example, if after you hit them for a consequence, on their turn, if they try to flee, you can invoke 'shaken badly' to say they only move one zone because they are too shaken to act decisively.

Sometimes, if I know a enemy has recovery, if I inflict a minor consequence, I'll immediacy invoke it(knowing they'll heal it before I have a chance to tag it). So I might say the attack shoots them across the room making them 'prone',  or maybe they fly over the bar*. breaking liquer bottles and are covered with spirits making them 'flammable'. At least then, I might still have an aspect to tag even after they heal.

*_{every fight scene should have a bar. Mandatory.}

[Tedronai]

Compels are negotiated, and not merely to the extent that they can be refused.  They are also subject to a test of 'reasonableness' to be judged by the table.
Personally, and with the groups I have gamed alongside, 'you lose the fight' is very rarely a 'reasonable' compel.
Something to the effect 'you need to offer a Concession' might very well be acceptable, though.  For instance, an aspect might be invoked representing a dire and urgent need to address matters elsewhere, forcing an opponent to flee, or an aspect representing a fiery temper might be invoked to force a concession in a duel of words (possibly resulting in the beginning of a new physical conflict scene to replace the now-ended social conflict).
This, though, is typically the extreme end of the power of compels.  Handle with care, and remember to negotiate, negotiate, negotiate.  Everyone should come out the other side happy with the results.  If they don't, then something has gone wrong.

[Saracen]

I have a couple of questions about Ambush and Surprise. Page 142 of Your Story reads: "If the victim’s roll fails, he can only defend at an
effective skill level of Mediocre." Does that mean he doesn't even roll his Mediocre defense? Also, what about eventual boosts from powers or stunts? And finally, can you make Surprise the Catch of a Recovery/Toughness power?

[Haru]

I have a couple of questions about Ambush and Surprise. Page 142 of Your Story reads: "If the victim’s roll fails, he can only defend at an
effective skill level of Mediocre." Does that mean he doesn't even roll his Mediocre defense? Also, what about eventual boosts from powers or stunts? And finally, can you make Surprise the Catch of a Recovery/Toughness power?

They roll, but their skill, including all benefits from powers and stunts, is considered 0 for this roll.

Since virtually anything can be a catch, surprise could probably count as well. Though it would be a fairly limited range where it would make sense. I could see something like a force field that has to be activated with a catch of being surprised. The force field is, in the systems mechanic, not done with evocation, but with the toughness power, and since it is pretty tasking to constantly keep it up, the character can only do so for a limited time, usually once he's in a fight. Being caught off guard would get around that. Though it wouldn't fit a recovery power.

[Saracen]

Yeah... I was playing around with statting various characters from movies/TV-shows/comics etc. with the DFRPG system and I was somewhat stuck on Kitty Pryde from the X-Men. I gave her Physical Immunity and "being taken by surprise" as its (+4 maybe?) catch, since her phasing power isn't active all the time and she has to make a conscious (but instantaneous) effort to activate it.

[dragoonbuster]

They roll, but their skill, including all benefits from powers and stunts, is considered 0 for this roll.

Since virtually anything can be a catch, surprise could probably count as well. Though it would be a fairly limited range where it would make sense. I could see something like a force field that has to be activated with a catch of being surprised. The force field is, in the systems mechanic, not done with evocation, but with the toughness power, and since it is pretty tasking to constantly keep it up, the character can only do so for a limited time, usually once he's in a fight. Being caught off guard would get around that. Though it wouldn't fit a recovery power.

My interpretation is that powers do add to the mediocre. I'd think something with inhuman (and beyond) reflexes/speed would have a one-up on pure mortal speed, even when completely caught off guard.

As far as the Catch, I agree, and I like the force-field example. I could also see it flavored along the lines of "I'm tough when I'm focusing my energy on it"--drawing from DBZ, where the characters can focus their ki to make themselves tougher, stronger, faster, etc (which is why Goku was able to catch Trunks' sword on his fingertip and not care, for instance). Caught off guard, they are drastically weaker. It's not an exact carryover, but it's close enough. Narratively, it works for me. The Kitty example works too.

Now, the rebate...probably just +1 (since presumably more than just one or two people can sneak up on the PC, but not everyone and their mother), maybe +2 since it could be figured out after coming across them once or twice. If sneak attacks are going to come up in the game a lot you might give it another +1 for a total +3.

[Saracen]

I think that if you allow one of the PCs to buy the Physical Immunity power, you kind of have to make sneak attacks come up a lot, although I'd consider having the player take another catch (maybe lasers or sound blasts in Kitty's case) beside surprise.

[dragoonbuster]

I think that if you allow one of the PCs to buy the Physical Immunity power, you kind of have to make sneak attacks come up a lot, although I'd consider having the player take another catch (maybe lasers or sound blasts in Kitty's case) beside surprise.

Yeah, I probably wouldn't allow full Immunity with that kind of Catch without additional Catches. Sound/lasers as a secondary for Kitty is a good one.

In general I prefer "Immunity from X" over "Immunity to everything except X" in any case.

[Haru]

I think that if you allow one of the PCs to buy the Physical Immunity power, you kind of have to make sneak attacks come up a lot.

I'd be careful with immunity for player characters in general. They will either roflstomp everything, or you have to give every mook the catch, which will get ridiculous. To me, invulnerability is a plot device, as it makes it necessary for the players to figure out the catch. That puts it squarely in NPC only territory.

Kitty Pryde is an odd one, because while she can become completely immune, she can't interact with anything herself. In effect, once she goes into invulnerability mode, you can either stall the fight until she goes back out, or you can end the fight by either of the sides walking away.

If she can attack from her invulnerability by switching back and forth quickly, nobody can take her out, and she can just play out the death of a thousand tiny cuts. Not really fun for either side.

Maybe the custom power "limitations" can work to accurately portrait her, but I'm no expert in those.

[solbergb]

My interpretation is that powers do add to the mediocre. I'd think something with inhuman (and beyond) reflexes/speed would have a one-up on pure mortal speed, even when completely caught off guard.

The way to simulate that without invoking an aspect is with a stunt.  They can't normally engage their speed if they don't know anything is happening after all.   The Dresden books have plenty of examples where this is the case.  Remember that somebody really fast will likely have supporting aspects and can always spend a fate point to invoke "Son of Hermes" to react anyway during an ambush, invoking the aspect.  If you lack such an aspect, well, sure you're a Red Court Infected but your inhuman speed isn't at the same level as your fellow Red Court Infected who took the aspect "Faster than you Think".   You let yourself be ambushed or try to find a different aspect to invoke that will help.

If you want it reliable, you want a stunt -

Stunt: "Plenty of Time to React" - use Athletics instead of Alertness for the "Avoiding Surprise" trapping.  (super-speed adds to athletics for all purposes, so it'd improve this stunt, and the one best at avoiding surprise would be an individual with lots of refresh spent in super speed AND high athletics)

Likewise simulating surprise caused by a speedster zipping in from behind full cover and doing something awful before your neurons could fire can also be handled via a stunt

Stunt: "No time to react" - use Athletics instead of Stealth for the "Ambush" trapping (the enemy still has to start out unaware of you, but that's a lot easier when you start the exchange two zones away, still and behind full cover, etc.   Possibly with a fate point you could invoke this (or some other supporting speedster aspect) even when they are aware of you...they know you're there but are as helpless in the first exchange as if they didn't because you move so fast.)

[solbergb]

Kitty Pryde is an odd one, because while she can become completely immune,

Her catch is actually electricity.  She can affect and be affected by electronics.  Magneto took her out in an early appearance when she tried to raid his lair and fry his computers.  I *think* that was after she tried using roller skates on a very unfortunate super hero costume.  Early Kitty Pryde was kind of a goof.

I would buy her power as a variant of Mistform.   Mistform gives you flight, physical immunity and an extra catch based on your special effect (in her case electricity instead of high winds).  Pretty much covers all she does, lets you do maneuvers (like popping up and scaring people, or disrupting electronics) but not attacks.  Pay an extra refresh to shift in/out as a supplemental action, 4 points, call it done.

[Haru]

Her catch is actually electricity.  She can affect and be affected by electronics.  Magneto took her out in an early appearance when she tried to raid his lair and fry his computers.  I *think* that was after she tried using roller skates on a very unfortunate super hero costume.  Early Kitty Pryde was kind of a goof.

Ah, ok. Didn't know the electricity thing.

I would buy her power as a variant of Mistform.   Mistform gives you flight, physical immunity and an extra catch based on your special effect (in her case electricity instead of high winds).  Pretty much covers all she does, lets you do maneuvers (like popping up and scaring people, or disrupting electronics) but not attacks.  Pay an extra refresh to shift in/out as a supplemental action, 4 points, call it done.

Sounds good.