Author Topic: [SERIES SPOILRS] Wow there is a lot to learn from some research on Tam Lin  (Read 12167 times)

Offline Patrick Bateman

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 225
    • View Profile
Currators note:  This OP has some pretty awesome stuff in it, and the topic quickly morphs into finding ties between Tam Lin and Mac -Serack

 I'm not sure why it took me so long, but I finally did some research on Tam Lin, the Winter Knight that Mab so fondly remembered.

Quote
Dancing with Mab was like dancing with a shadow. She moved so gracefully, so lightly that had my eyes been closed, I might not have been able to tell that she was there at all. I felt lumbering and clumsy beside her, but managed not to trip over my own feet.
      “That was well-​done, wizard,” Mab murmured. “No one has lifted a hand to them that way since the days of Tam Lin.”

Here's the summary of the Tam Lin ballad:

Quote
The woods of Carterhaugh are guarded by Tam Lin, a man who demands payment of all maidens who pass through, in the form of a belonging or their virginity. A maiden named Janet travels to Carterhaugh and picks a rose, causing Tam Lin to appear. He questions her presence, to which she relies that Carterhaugh is rightfully hers. She then travels to her fathers house where she exhibits the early signs of pregnancy, much to the concern of the household. She states that her lover is elven, and then returns to Carterhaugh, once again encountering Tam Lin. He reveals he is not elven, but a mortal captured by the queen of Faeries, and that he may be sacrificied to hell as part of the faerie tithe. He then details how she can save him to be her mate, if she will undergo a trial on Halloween night. She must pull him from his horse as the faeries process through the woods, and hold onto him as he is transformed into various beasts, then plunge him into a well when he turns into a brand of fire. When he regains his own naked shape she must cover him with her green mantle and he will be free. She does all of this, much to the anger of the watching Queen of faeries.


I'm trying to pick this apart to see what we can extrapolate to the Dresdenverse here. Some thoughts:

  • It seems as though if the Queen decides to sacrifice her knight on Halloween for the tithe and he manages to survive it, the mantle of knight will be discarded. This fits beautifully with Vadderung's statement at the end of CD:
    Quote
    “It was Halloween, Dresden. You put on a mask for a time. That’s all.” He looked directly at me and said, “Many, many mantles are worn—or discarded—on Halloween night, wizard.”
  • Interestingly, Lin was covered by a physical "mantle" in order to be relieved of his knight's mantle. Perhaps the knight mantle is simply being switched for a physical one - this would fit with the balance we see with the Sidhe, though it's a bit of a stretch. Alternatively this could be a metaphor for another magical mantle that is being bestowed, and the story has been distorted through time.
  • The tithe is a ceremony that happens every seven years in which mortals are sacrificed to hell, though why this occurs seems to be unclear in the general folklore. Some sources state that it is payment to Satan for something that happened in the past. This could easily be a plot point for a future book.
  • It's possible that the well referred to is the Wellspring at the heart of Arctis Tor, which would help to explain exactly how the mantle is discarded - the mantle is kept at the heart of the power of Winter until it is bestowed upon a new knight. The knight is thrown down the well in order to put the mantle in contact with the heart of winter.
  • Tam Lin needed a woman to help him throughout the process - perhaps if Harry is to undergo it as well, this would be represented by Murph? Or perhaps this is the woman that Jim decides will be the girl for Harry's future.

It's not airtight, but I do think it's revealing. One big problem is that now that we know the purpose of Winter, Mab, the Knight, and the Sidhe in general, it doesn't seem as though Harry should be discarding the mantle of knight - he needs the power ups in order to fight the outsiders. There are at least three possible solutions to this. The first is, as suggested before, the mantle of Knight is being switched for a different magical mantle that we are currently unaware of (though the GateKeeper mantle is a possibility). This would allow Harry to retain his powerups, or at least be given some new ones for the continuation of the series. The second possible solution is that the tithe ceremony happens at the very end of the BAT, after the outsiders are destroyed. This would be a fantastic opportunity for Harry's love life to be tied up and his ties with winter to be severed, creating a very "happily ever after"-esque ending. The third possibility is that the maiden is Lea; the mantle could be a metaphorical or physical one that she gives to him after the trial. I'm thinking that within it she bestows upon Harry the power that she was given to by Mab when Mab traded for Harry's debt. This would represent the final payment for the debt that Lea had to Maggie senior. It's possible that this would give Harry the power of Winter without the obligations of the Knight.

Is there anything else we can garner from the Tam Lin story?
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 06:32:56 PM by Serack »
"That is why you fail." (Butcher, p.66)

Offline Patrick Bateman

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 225
    • View Profile
Reserved
"That is why you fail." (Butcher, p.66)

Offline madness

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1968
    • View Profile
Calling Lea a 'maiden' is stretching it a bit. ;)

Interesting 'deeper' research into Tam Lin though.  My own research was limited to what I could quickly google.

I think that Jim dropped a mention of Tam Lin for two reasons - to show that the most capable knights are independent and piss Mab off and also to show that the mantle can be set aside eventually.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 08:21:25 PM by madness »

Offline Mira

  • Needs A Life
  • ***
  • Posts: 24054
    • View Profile
Calling Lea a 'maiden' is stretching it a bit. ;)

Interesting 'deeper' research into Tam Lin though.  My own research was limited to what I could quickly google.

I think that Jim dropped a mention of Tam Lin for two reasons - to show that the most capable knights are independent and piss Mab off and also to show that the mantle can be set aside eventually.
  I agree with this.

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
Part of me wants to think Mac is Tam Lin, like many others have speculated on.  And in the story in my head, Tam Lin was the WK for the previous WQ, and was freed by his true love on Halloween.  Then he had a daughter with his true love, and that daughter later became Mab.  Mab keeps her father alive, as a last link to her mortality. 

But I also sometimes think Mac is Merlin Emrys, who had a child (Mab) with Nimue.  And then his daughter became the WQ.  And Mab keeps her father alive, as a last link to her mortality.

Basically, I think Mac is Mab's father, and I'll sell out to any theory that can work that into it.

Offline Darkest-Before-Dawn

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 186
    • View Profile
Part of me wants to think Mac is Tam Lin, like many others have speculated on.  And in the story in my head, Tam Lin was the WK for the previous WQ, and was freed by his true love on Halloween.  Then he had a daughter with his true love, and that daughter later became Mab.  Mab keeps her father alive, as a last link to her mortality. 

But I also sometimes think Mac is Merlin Emrys, who had a child (Mab) with Nimue.  And then his daughter became the WQ.  And Mab keeps her father alive, as a last link to her mortality.

Basically, I think Mac is Mab's father, and I'll sell out to any theory that can work that into it.

Oh I hadn't heard the Mac as Tam Lin theory before, I quite like that (not sure I'm buying into him being Mab's dad though ;) )

Tenuous support for that idea could come from the fact that one of the biggest pieces of dialogue we've ever had from Mac was in response to Harry telling him about Maggie. Since the myth of Tam Lin often features the young woman returning pregnant, maybe in the Dresdenverse this fatherhood was what caused Mac to embark upon discarding the Winter Knight mantle.

Quote from CD: "Something like this will test you like nothing else" Mac said "You're going to find out who you are, Harry. You're going to find out which principles you'll stand by to your death- and which lines you'll cross."

Certainly evokes images of Mac going on some kind of quest to discard the mantle. Food for thought, at least.

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
Oh I hadn't heard the Mac as Tam Lin theory before, I quite like that (not sure I'm buying into him being Mab's dad though ;) )

Tenuous support for that idea could come from the fact that one of the biggest pieces of dialogue we've ever had from Mac was in response to Harry telling him about Maggie. Since the myth of Tam Lin often features the young woman returning pregnant, maybe in the Dresdenverse this fatherhood was what caused Mac to embark upon discarding the Winter Knight mantle.

Quote from CD: "Something like this will test you like nothing else" Mac said "You're going to find out who you are, Harry. You're going to find out which principles you'll stand by to your death- and which lines you'll cross."

Certainly evokes images of Mac going on some kind of quest to discard the mantle. Food for thought, at least.
It was Mac's speech about fatherhood, combined with the description of Mab just staring down at Mac in CD, that invoked the father/daughter idea.

Offline madness

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1968
    • View Profile
It was Mac's speech about fatherhood, combined with the description of Mab just staring down at Mac in CD, that invoked the father/daughter idea.

This is right off the top of my head and I haven't thought out the details but wouldn't Mac/Tam Lin being one of Mab's former lovers (and perhaps the father of one of her daughters) account for that?

Offline Griffyn612

  • The Merlin
  • Seriously?
  • *******
  • Posts: 11725
    • View Profile
This is right off the top of my head and I haven't thought out the details but wouldn't Mac/Tam Lin being one of Mab's former lovers (and perhaps the father of one of her daughters) account for that?
Well, Mac and Maeve don't show any familiarity in PG when Maeve is in his pub.  And he and Sarissa are somewhat comfortable around each other in CD, but I wouldn't say they're overly familiar.  And Sarissa doesn't seem that concerned when Maeve shoots him; it was Justine that moved to his side.  (queue the Justine=Mab's Daughter conspirators)

And there's a "weird" factor if Mac is Mab's former lover.  Mab keeping a mortal lover alive for 1,000 years but not being with him is weird.

Him being her father fits better in my head.  He was free from Winter, but then his daughter got pulled in.  It'd be a parallel to Harry's relationship with Molly, where he tried to keep her safe, and it ended up costing her. 

Offline Maredudd

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 84
    • View Profile
    • My Website . . . or is that my wife's?
Part of me wants to think Mac is Tam Lin, like many others have speculated on.  And in the story in my head, Tam Lin was the WK for the previous WQ, and was freed by his true love on Halloween.  Then he had a daughter with his true love, and that daughter later became Mab.  Mab keeps her father alive, as a last link to her mortality.

I am officially behind this one . . .

Best theory I've seen yet for who Mac is . . . and he's a signatory on Mab's accords!
The question isn't "Can I do this . . . "
The question you should ask is "Should I do this . . . "

Offline Lany79

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 571
    • View Profile
It is an interesting theory, Mac being Tam Lin or perhaps Merlin.

But there is a line from CD that makes me wonder if Mac isn't something else entirely. I don't have the book in front of me right now, but Sharkface does call Mac Watcher once or twice. There is a very specific class of being who were referred to as Watchers. The Grigori.

Offline Patrick Bateman

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 225
    • View Profile
It is an interesting theory, Mac being Tam Lin or perhaps Merlin.

But there is a line from CD that makes me wonder if Mac isn't something else entirely. I don't have the book in front of me right now, but Sharkface does call Mac Watcher once or twice. There is a very specific class of being who were referred to as Watchers. The Grigori.

Yea I think this has been mentioned a couple of times - warrants some more research in my opinion.
"That is why you fail." (Butcher, p.66)

Offline madness

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1968
    • View Profile
I still prefer the Gregori angle.

There isn't enough evidence to prove anything one way or the other but until something else comes along I think that the Gregori theory is the most likely.

Angels already have a lot of restrictions on interfering.  An angel who 'fell' for refusing to get involved when ordered to do so and who was somehow pardoned seems like someone who might be REALLY restricted in their ability to take action or get involved in events.


Offline Lany79

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 571
    • View Profile
I still prefer the Gregori angle.

There isn't enough evidence to prove anything one way or the other but until something else comes along I think that the Gregori theory is the most likely.

Angels already have a lot of restrictions on interfering.  An angel who 'fell' for refusing to get involved when ordered to do so and who was somehow pardoned seems like someone who might be REALLY restricted in their ability to take action or get involved in events.

Perhaps I'm thinking of something else, but weren't the Grigori cast out, as it were, not because of refusing to to get involved, but because they fathered the Nephilim? So, perhaps Mac does indeed have a child out there somewhere.

Offline Orbweaver

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 4570
  • Let the games begin.
    • View Profile
Well. If the Sidhe do indeed have a debt to Hell that is paid on a once a decade basis, based on the Tam Lin research- we may have how Jim came up with the plot for this book. Rather than the usual terms of the debt being met, Mab (or someone on Hell's side) negotiated the theft of the artifact in Hades' lair for Skin Game instead.

It strikes me as being a bit off, though, because the original terms were more about mortal sacrifice- something Hell regards as its bread and butter. Holy Grail Speculation about the artifact's nature coming in three... two... one...:D
In a world of black, white, and grey's... I'd be bright freaking purple. Resident Female Forum Denarian.