Coming to Terms With Summoning and Binding

[Crion]

Recently, my players saw an NPC have a demonic minion, and they have a basic in-game understanding about how it was done (objects used and whatnot). For the most part, this was done at the Speed-Of-Plot and had little mechanical impact; I basically just wanted a swarm of demons summoned to cause madness and mayhem for the story at hand. But now that one Big Bad has been slapped into serving, one of my players may want to do something similar.

I was just re-reading the rules for this not too long ago and I'm trying to make sure I have this correct.

In order to have a summoned entity under your control, you have to:

1) Summon it. Have enough shifts to beat its Conviction roll to bring it out.
2) Wheel and Deal (if it isn't trying to break free). This seems to go and speed of plot, perhaps some Social combat.
3) Control it. If it tries to break free, it's a Conviction vs Conviction roll to maintain it. This also allows it to be banished.
4) Bind it. This is a ritual in and of itself and must be able to Take Out the target. For that, you need enough shifts for each consequence (17) plus highest defense skill+1 (let's make it a 6 total) plus related Stress Track +1 (let's be nice and say 5 total), for a total Complexity of 28. Am I mistaken in this?
And to keep the entity bound and working for you, you need to continue to do this all over again every time it finishes recovery. Still correct so far?

Now, here's the thought that confuses me: wouldn't having a horribly weakened entity be nigh-useless for some things? For example, Kalshazaak in Storm Front seemed to be pretty beastly, so wouldn't he have been a LOT weaker if he had all of his consequences were already filled?

Or is there something I'm missing here?

As always, any input would be greatly appreciated!

--Crion

[Tedronai]

What you're missing is that the summoning&binding rules only sort of work, and are generally a poor choice for mechanical representation of a narrative ritual.  Far more reasonable (usually) is to represent the ritual by asking what it is intended to accomplish.  If you're summoning a demon to kill your enemy (Kalshazaak), then perform a ritual powerful enough to take out your enemy and narrate it as summoning a demon.  If you're summoning a demon to interrogate it for information (Chauncy), then perform a ritual powerful enough to access that piece of information, and narrate it as a demon answering your questions.

For those times when that strategy doesn't work (such as when the goal is to have a long-term minion) some members of this board have cobbled together some houserules on the subject (also applicable to the creation of constructs and the like) and may have a link handy to the relevant thread(s).

[Crion]

What you're missing is that the summoning&binding rules only sort of work, and are generally a poor choice for mechanical representation of a narrative ritual.  Far more reasonable (usually) is to represent the ritual by asking what it is intended to accomplish.  If you're summoning a demon to kill your enemy (Kalshazaak), then perform a ritual powerful enough to take out your enemy and narrate it as summoning a demon.  If you're summoning a demon to interrogate it for information (Chauncy), then perform a ritual powerful enough to access that piece of information, and narrate it as a demon answering your questions.

For those times when that strategy doesn't work (such as when the goal is to have a long-term minion) some members of this board have cobbled together some houserules on the subject (also applicable to the creation of constructs and the like) and may have a link handy to the relevant thread(s).

The narrative side of things makes sense, but as you pointed out, it doesn't work for minions and whatnot. I'll try using the search for constructs (overlooked that idea) and attempt to not search more than once a minute. *laughs*

If anyone has a link to such a discussion, or has a set of rules that they enjoy using, I'd appreciate seeing them.

[Sanctaphrax]

The aforementioned houserules.

[Crion]

The aforementioned houserules.

Shiny. Thanks for the link!

[Deadmanwalking]

I actually like the summoning rules (though I know I'm in the minority there). What follows is my opinion on how these rules work, and as such, involves some rules interpretations that not everyone agrees with (though nothing that's a full-on House Rule).

I'd argue that the first roll (the roll to summon the creature) is basically a really good magical version of a Contacts roll. You get a character. Not a pile of stats, but a full character with wants, needs, stats, and a full personality. You then have three choices:

1. Continue with this as you would if it were a mundane Contacts roll and make a deal. This might be done as social combat or pure roleplaying. In any case, it's completely non-magical, though the price you pay for aid might be either magical or weird.

2. Engage it in mental combat using it's True Name. This is a long process (since it's done on a per exchange basis), and will usually leave the critter pretty beat up (ie: with consequences full)...depending on how much it resists, anyway, and how powerful it is. This is also risky as anyone can do it to your critter if they find out it's name.

3. Use the "full transformative effect" option, which consists of enough shifts to kill the critter (actually, probably around 34 if all it's Consequences are in play)...but an effect like this doesn't actually inflict any consequences, it's just an attack big enough that they wouldn't help. So the critter is now bound to you and Consequence-free...but this isn't precisely an easy thing to do. It's much easier for nameless minions who will never use Consequences since you can just do their Discipline +5 plus their Mental Stress Boxes +1 (not usually all that high a total)...but those are minions, and won't use their Consequences vs. your enemies either.

Of those three, the last is surest (though most difficult)...but the first is probably the best way to do it, since it won't ever net you Lawbreaker (which the other two can, if you, say, order your minion to kill), and isn't actively violating the free will of something that might be vengeful later.

[ways and means]

I really like the 3 part ritual summoning as well (warding, summoning and binding) but it only works if you ensure that bound spirits are npc's in that they are characters with agenda besides that of the player party. Mind you summoning in Dresden verse seems to be of a massive force multiplier both binder and Victor summoned things which in aggregate where much more powerful than them, so allowing dresden verse summoning as portrayed in the novels should be unbalancing (similar in many ways to exalted power house summoning).

[Mr. Death]

I think that method of summoning takes way too long, uses way too much power, and just isn't a reasonable facsimile for what we see in the books, which is that you can summon large numbers of minions very quickly.

So my thoughts? It's just one ritual, with one relatively low complexity. You set it for the assigned value of whatever you're summoning, and the calling, overpowering, binding is all just flavor text.

Otherwise you're looking at, what, Binder pulling 50-shift rituals every time he summons up his goons?

[Deadmanwalking]

God no. Binder's goon use apparently doesn't violate the Laws (since otherwise the Wardens would've killed him by now)...which means that, name aside, hes not actually binding them (since it's been established that what Sells was doing did break the Laws). They seem to have a hive mind, so I'm betting he made a long-term deal with it for it's services...which means he needn't Ward or anything and it's a 4-8 shift ritual at worst.

And even if he was summoning and binding them individually, they almost certainly don't use their Consequences (as minions) making it a lot easier to bind them.

[Mr. Death]

God no. Binder's goon use apparently doesn't violate the Laws (since otherwise the Wardens would've killed him by now)...which means that, name aside, hes not actually binding them (since it's been established that what Sells was doing did break the Laws). They seem to have a hive mind, so I'm betting he made a long-term deal with it for it's services...which means he needn't Ward or anything and it's a 4-8 shift ritual at worst.

And even if he was summoning and binding them individually, they almost certainly don't use their Consequences (as minions) making it a lot easier to bind them.

What about Victor Sells, then? We see him summon and command the demon on-page, with very little preparation being done. He sure as heck didn't look like he was casting some huge 30-shift spell to do it.

[Deadmanwalking]

What about Victor Sells, then? We see him summon and command the demon on-page, with very little preparation being done. He sure as heck didn't look like he was casting some huge 30-shift spell to do it.

Kalshazzak was already bound. I mean, he'd sent him to kill Harry earlier, remember? All he needed to do was open a door to the Nevernever to bring the big guy through. Heck, since he was bound he couldn't even resist, which makes it a very low Complexity spell indeed.

[123456789blaaa]

God no. Binder's goon use apparently doesn't violate the Laws (since otherwise the Wardens would've killed him by now)...which means that, name aside, hes not actually binding them (since it's been established that what Sells was doing did break the Laws). They seem to have a hive mind, so I'm betting he made a long-term deal with it for it's services...which means he needn't Ward or anything and it's a 4-8 shift ritual at worst.

And even if he was summoning and binding them individually, they almost certainly don't use their Consequences (as minions) making it a lot easier to bind them.

Harry is wrong about a lot of stuff in the early books (saying demon summoning broke the 7th Law for example). Telling a summoned minion to kill someone breaks the First Law but Binder gets around that by ordering his minions close to the target and than loosening his control over them. 

[Deadmanwalking]

Harry is wrong about a lot of stuff in the early books (saying demon summoning broke the 7th Law for example). Telling a summoned minion to kill someone breaks the First Law but Binder gets around that by ordering his minions close to the target and than loosening his control over them.

That's one possibility, sure. So's the one I list. There's no definitive answer on this one.

In any case, the second part (where they lack Consequences) still applies. And, for the record, I was referring to ordering to kill when I was talking about Lawbreaking. Harry never even claimed anything else.

[Mr. Death]

Kalshazzak was already bound. I mean, he'd sent him to kill Harry earlier, remember? All he needed to do was open a door to the Nevernever to bring the big guy through. Heck, since he was bound he couldn't even resist, which makes it a very low Complexity spell indeed.

I really don't think the binding stays on him even when he goes back to the Nevernever--that doesn't make much sense unless Sells has some intrinsic hold on him or some kind of major bargain. Not something Harry could undo so easily.

Because if it was such a huge complexity spell, shouldn't Harry's counterspell have had to match it?

[Deadmanwalking]

I really don't think the binding stays on him even when he goes back to the Nevernever--that doesn't make much sense unless Sells has some intrinsic hold on him or some kind of major bargain. Not something Harry could undo so easily.

Sells didn't use the 34 shift spell, he used the True Name to bludgeon the poor critter into service, making the binding a Consequence of some kind and only recoverable as such. Or a result of being taken out and thus permanent unless someone else does the same again...

And even the 34 shift version can be broken by taking it out again, since that lets you change it's nature entirely.

Because if it was such a huge complexity spell, shouldn't Harry's counterspell have had to match it?

It let Harry win a similar contest to the one Sells had had with it (ie: mental combat), conceding and thus being freed, since why wouldn't they both be cool with that result? He would've had a lot more trouble binding it himself, since it would've actually used consequences and resisted.