Author Topic: Santa Claus is a Fae reference collection [CD Spoilers]  (Read 15257 times)

Offline Ms Duck

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Re: Santa Claus is a Fae reference collection [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2013, 03:15:54 PM »
My point Ms.Duck is that we don't know what the criteria for being a god is in the Dresdenverse. Sure a being can say it's a god but is it?

Let's use Neil Gaimans American Gods as an example. In this book "gods" are beings that gain power from belief. A powerfull creature might claim it's a god but since it doesn't get power from belief it is by definition not a god.

I'm not saying that the same is true in the Dresdenverse but the point is that it could be. In the Dresdenverse you may have to meet a certain criteria (power coming from belief or otherwise) before you can be called a "god". The historical perspective is useful as a reference point but no more. Jim changes mythological stuff all the time (I don't remember anything about narcotic saliva or ectoplasmic skin in the Mayan mythos for example).

For an example, remember in Dead Beat when Harry said that Cowl would become a god if he preformed the Darkhallow? Harry didn't say anything about people worshipping Cowl so that's a point against the historical perspective. 

If a king in europe claimed he was a lemon and executed anyone who disagreed I wouldn't be inclined to argue loudly. He's still not a lemon.

both have some validity- for example number of believers / knoweledgable has little to do with thte power of  a god that has been shown, and more to do with is the god allowed to do anything ? thats what the whole oblivion war is about.

as to cowl, is suspect he would have ended up with worshippers, eventually.

and then there is the whole issue of purpose

my point is, you may be right. but if there is some sort of 'minimum requirement' its in the 'power you can use' catagory. and that makes mab a god.
Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


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Offline Darkshore

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Re: Santa Claus is a Fae reference collection [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2013, 03:19:19 PM »
Lot's of interesting stuff here. As for the conversation about Iron, Jim seems to have made a lot of his own nuances with this in the Dresden Files. In many cultures iron is a long standing protection against evil, spirits, and magic. In fact iron is believed to have the power to not only block magic but drain it as well. Jim seems to only take irons significance in terms of damaging the Fae, but doesn't offer explanation as to why it's other uses are null and void.

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Santa Claus is a Fae reference collection [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2013, 03:20:14 PM »
both have some validity- for example number of believers / knoweledgable has little to do with thte power of  a god that has been shown, and more to do with is the god allowed to do anything ? thats what the whole oblivion war is about.

as to cowl, is suspect he would have ended up with worshippers, eventually.

and then there is the whole issue of purpose

my point is, you may be right. but if there is some sort of 'minimum requirement' its in the 'power you can use' catagory. and that makes mab a god.

We don't know though so why speculate about it? We have no idea what makes a god a god in the Dresdenverse. The best we can do is make shaky guesses.

Until we get a definition, I will only call a being in the Dresdenverse a god if it's called a god in the books.

Where is it suspected that Cowl would have eventually ended up with worshippers? i can't recall anything like that in DB. It doesn't really matter anyways since he would still have been a god even if he hadn't ended up with worshippers.
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Offline Ms Duck

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Re: Santa Claus is a Fae reference collection [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2013, 04:18:58 PM »
We don't know though so why speculate about it? We have no idea what makes a god a god in the Dresdenverse. The best we can do is make shaky guesses.

Until we get a definition, I will only call a being in the Dresdenverse a god if it's called a god in the books.

Where is it suspected that Cowl would have eventually ended up with worshippers? i can't recall anything like that in DB. It doesn't really matter anyways since he would still have been a god even if he hadn't ended up with worshippers.

pardon, thats my dyslexia. it should read 'I suspect' .. because thats what i think; the godhood comes first from ascension then worshippers come later.
Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


That's been disabled. But I can still CALL you Fup Duck. -Shecky

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Santa Claus is a Fae reference collection [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #34 on: January 01, 2013, 07:44:35 PM »
pardon, thats my dyslexia. it should read 'I suspect' .. because thats what i think; the godhood comes first from ascension then worshippers come later.

In that case the worshippers are basically just a side effect of becoming a god then. They're not required for you to be a god.
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Offline Orloth

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Re: Santa Claus is a Fae reference collection [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #35 on: January 01, 2013, 08:34:21 PM »
Would you mind telling me what your point was?
My point is very similar to that which Ms Duck and you are arguing.

Why is it what it is?  What are the qualifications?  What are the reasons?  Granted, I was rambling a bit, I do that a lot, but still.

'Fae are weak to iron because they are Fae' is a statement that needs qualification, and you qualified it, but it does not answer whether Fae existed before they were weak to Iron; or if they did exist before then, were they still Sidhe?

Just like you too are arguing whether or not so-and-so is a god based on unknown and assumed qualifications.  (Though In that case, I blame Jahovah for claiming exclusive licencing on the title of 'God'.  Few Religious figures were ever that ballsy.  How about use the word 'deity' so you don't get His panties in a twist, Eh?)  Ms Duck is extrapolating data, and the Count is taking the conservative approach.
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Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Santa Claus is a Fae reference collection [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #36 on: January 01, 2013, 09:06:16 PM »
My point is very similar to that which Ms Duck and you are arguing.

Why is it what it is?  What are the qualifications?  What are the reasons?  Granted, I was rambling a bit, I do that a lot, but still.

'Fae are weak to iron because they are Fae' is a statement that needs qualification, and you qualified it, but it does not answer whether Fae existed before they were weak to Iron; or if they did exist before then, were they still Sidhe?

Just like you too are arguing whether or not so-and-so is a god based on unknown and assumed qualifications.  (Though In that case, I blame Jahovah for claiming exclusive licencing on the title of 'God'.  Few Religious figures were ever that ballsy.  How about use the word 'deity' so you don't get His panties in a twist, Eh?)  Ms Duck is extrapolating data, and the Count is taking the conservative approach.

When I saw your post it didn't really seem like you were making any points at all. Rather, you were asking a bunch of questions and speculating about them. I chose to answer one of them (Are Fae weak to Iron because they are Fae) and left the rest alone since I think we don't have nearly enough information to answer them.
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Offline Orloth

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Re: Santa Claus is a Fae reference collection [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2013, 09:28:24 PM »
That is pretty much what I was doing, yes, but with the aim of speculating on the current question (I don't remember what that was at the time, something about whether Santa should have been weak to Iron, I think.).  What's the fun of obsessively following something if we can't extrapolate wild theories about it?
"There's always hope, because it's the one thing nobody's figured out how to kill yet." ~ Galen

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Santa Claus is a Fae reference collection [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #38 on: January 01, 2013, 09:35:08 PM »
That is pretty much what I was doing, yes, but with the aim of speculating on the current question (I don't remember what that was at the time, something about whether Santa should have been weak to Iron, I think.).  What's the fun of obsessively following something if we can't extrapolate wild theories about it?

I can't see the appeal. You are of course, free to do whatever you wish  :).
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Offline PilgrimDan

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Re: Santa Claus is a Fae reference collection [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #39 on: January 01, 2013, 11:18:37 PM »
Just to throw this bone into the conversation... Have we ever seen or are we ever going to see Kringle and Donar Vadderung in the same place at the same time?

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Re: Santa Claus is a Fae reference collection [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2013, 05:15:57 AM »
In that case the worshippers are basically just a side effect of becoming a god then. They're not required for you to be a god.
worshippers provide a power boost. you don't have to actually be a god or even be from the NN. iirc the time before the WC was said to be a time of dark god warlock wannabe's. i interpreted this to mean warlocks of the past exploited their power and demanded worship as a 'god' hence increasing their power.

Offline King Ash

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Re: Santa Claus is a Fae reference collection [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2013, 05:31:43 AM »

I can't remember Harry ever calling Mab a god. Could you quote an example? I also don't remember him giving any god in the series a capital G unless they were the White God. I do remember someone talking about "lesser gods" which implies greater gods...Does it say that Ferro serves something? I can't remember. I do remember that Ferro was called a VP of Creation which is the same thing Uriel was called so...that might imply that they're on the same power level. If that is true though than why was he at Biancia's ball? All the other beings on Uriels power level (the mother maybe?) are sort of above things like that. 

Quote
6. ferrovax - is this because he's the OLDEST dragon? (i thought it was an empty boast) or because he's a dragon?
Ferrovax feels absolutely no need to boast.  It's because he /is/ a Dragon, large D, an elemental force of the cosmos.  He isn't some kind of Smaug hanging around a nice apartment.  He's a Dragon in a more Asian sense of the concept, a semi-divine being who was once given authority over various portions of the mortal universe, and who was responsible for their orderly procession.  There /are/ Smauglike dragons (though not nearly as many now as there have been in the past, thanks George!) but they are essentially nothing but emissaries and servitors created in the image of the real thing.
Regardless of big D or little d, dragons almost universally resent humanity for usurping the balance of power in the world.
2009 Independence signing

That says that Ferro was given authority which means that there was someone above him. And that quote makes him sound more like he had a job similar to Mab/Titania that a VP of creation to me. Afterall, given that she is mostly immortal she could be called semi-divine and she controls various portions of the mortal universe. And Mab is in no way equal to Uriel. So I can't understand why people think Ferrovax was once a VP of creation.
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Offline Ms Duck

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Re: Santa Claus is a Fae reference collection [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2013, 05:47:57 AM »
In that case the worshippers are basically just a side effect of becoming a god then. They're not required for you to be a god.

i think thats what I said. or tried to say? I list two definitions of a 'god' in the DF- historical and raw power. Never meant to say- or imply- you need both. some have one, some have another; there is a definate corelation between the two in that the amoutnof power you are allowed to use is in some way limited by the number of believers you have (according to the oblivion war).. but it has little effect on the amount of actaul power a god has, i think.

that comes from:

-purpose
- sacrifices
-feeding (some gods may be able to feed thru worship)
-number of servants (?)

Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


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Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Santa Claus is a Fae reference collection [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2013, 09:07:03 PM »
i think thats what I said. or tried to say? I list two definitions of a 'god' in the DF- historical and raw power. Never meant to say- or imply- you need both. some have one, some have another; there is a definate corelation between the two in that the amoutnof power you are allowed to use is in some way limited by the number of believers you have (according to the oblivion war).. but it has little effect on the amount of actaul power a god has, i think.

that comes from:

-purpose
- sacrifices
-feeding (some gods may be able to feed thru worship)
-number of servants (?)

I don't recall the Oblivion War implying anything like that  ???. All Thomas said in Backup  was that those beings are tied to the world through mortal knowledge. That's it. Nothing about power level or the ability to use it.

Anyways, while you are of course free to believe whatever you wish, I wouldn't state it as fact (like when you said that Mab was a god). Instead I think it would be better if you made it clear that it is your own opinion. 
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Offline Ms Duck

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Re: Santa Claus is a Fae reference collection [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2013, 01:04:01 AM »
the vast majority of the information about the oblivion was isnt in the story itself, its in the WOJ. Heck, thomas and Lara dont even know they work for the archive. The oblivion war wa something jim thought was very nea, said he planned to put in but has now decided there is no room for it.

for example:

Quote
I'm pretty sure this will never make it into the actual Dresden Files, since Harry has no idea the Oblivion War is happening, along with everyone else.  So I'll share it here.

The Archive was constructed /for/ the Oblivion War.  Specifically.

Yes, the Archive (and Ivy, the two aren't really divisible) know about these forgotten beings.  The Archive is in essence the keeper of the dead, where they are concerned.  Once the archive believes one of them has been consigned to oblivion, she holds on to the memory of that being briefly, for another thousand years or so, watching for any mention of that being in print in an effort to make sure that she is the /last/ person alive who remembers whichever hideous entity has been consigned.

And once the safety period has elapsed, and the Archive is confident that no one else remembers, she deletes the memory from the Archive.  Bad guy, /gone/.

She also tries to keep track of the enemy players in the Oblivion War via watching for communications and so on.  When she finds a trace of them, somewhere, she lets a cell of operatives (like Lara and Thomas) know what's up, through a blind drop, and sends them off to handle the problem.

The Oblivion War is a huge, /slow/ thing.  Stuff happens every few decades, at most.  That's why the Archive was created--to be an immortal awareness, something that could track and intelligently direct responses to the enemy in a war happening on an almost geological scale.

All that other stuff she says the Archive is for?   Smoke and mirrors.

Kincaid, by the way, has no idea that the Oblivion War exists.  It isn't like Ivy explains this stuff.  She just gives orders.

as to Mab's godness.. enh its up to you. Im just going by the books, and woj. Harry is very ambivalent on who is or who is not a god; he's 'theological switzerland'. Odin says he used to be a god, that the loons used to be but fell; while uriel disagrees. Jim, in his own words, refers to beings at the Mab level as "semi-divine".. aka a demi god. good enough for me. 
Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


That's been disabled. But I can still CALL you Fup Duck. -Shecky