Author Topic: The Leather Duster time travel theory  (Read 19333 times)

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The Leather Duster time travel theory
« on: December 29, 2012, 02:19:59 PM »
This got a good reception in the "Have you ever guessed right" theory thread, so I thought I'd put it on the general board for comment after cleaning it up a bit. Feel free to tear it apart at will, but I think it's solid.

Harry has his first conversation with his "Unconscious" mind in Fool Moon. The figure is described:
Quote
Myself. Only better groomed, dressed in a mantled duster of black leather, not the sturdy, if style-less canvas that I wore. My double's pants and boots and shirt were all black as well, and they fit him as though tailor-made, rather then off-the-rack. His eyes were set deep, overshadowed by severe brows, and glittered with dark intelligence. His hair was neatly cut, and the short beard he wore emphasized the long lines of his face, the high cheekbones, the straight slash of his mouth, and the angular strength of his jaw. He stood as tall as I, as long limbed as I, but carried with him infinitely more confidence, raw knowledge, and strength.

Now when I first read the book, this description passed me by without notice. However, after a few rereads, something popped out at me. Harry, at this point, is wearing his original canvas duster. His "unconscious" mind is dressed in the iconic black leather duster he receives in this very book, only hours later in the narrative, but at this point he has yet to receive it from Susan or even know anything about it. To me this is a hint to both the reader and Harry that something is off. If you note during the dialog exchange between the two of them, Harry himself never comes up with the idea that this is his unconscious mind. The mysterious figure suggests that right off the bat.

Try rereading chapter 20 with the idea that Harry is talking to himself from a future vantage point....not his unconscious mind. Here are a few gems that pop out from the dialog:

Quote
"So you're saying you're wiser than me? Smarter than me?
"I probably am, in a lot of ways," my double said, "but that's not my job, and it's not why I'm here."
"I see. So what are you doing here, then? You're going to tell me how I'm going to meet three spirits of Harry Past, Present, and Future?"

Quote
My double slipped in front of me again, apparently without needing to cross the intervening space.
"It isn't that simple, Harry. No matter where you go, there you are."
"Look, I've had a long night."
"I know," my double said "Believe me, I know."


Note that this phrase - "No matter where you go, there you are." was uttered by Uriel at the tail end of Ghost Story, as his little bit of wisdom to Harry. Also note that the whole teleporting trick seems *very* similar to how he moved around in Ghost Story.

Quote
My double knelt on the other side of the apparition.
"Nothing, Harry," he said. "What happened at the police station wasn't your fault."
"Like hell it wasn't," I snarled. "If I'd have been faster, gotten there sooner, or if I'd told her the truth from the beginning -"
"But you didn't," my double interjected. "And you had some pretty damned compelling reasons not to. Ease up on yourself man. You can't change the past."
"Easy for you to say," I snarled
"No, it isn't," my double said quietly. "Concentrate on what you will do, not what you should have done."

Once you get rid of the whole 'unconscious' angle the apparition itself suggested, the conversation just seems to scream out to me "time travel irony". The figure talking to the Harry in Full Moon is obviously much more mature, confident, and composed then any Harry we've really met yet. Only the Harry of Cold Days seems to even begin to approach the vast gulf in attitude and maturity between the two figures.

If you reread the further interactions with the mysterious figure in later books, he generally argues against the sensibilities of whatever the current Harry is thinking. Getting him to consider options he considers off the table - for instance using Lash as a resource during the events of Dead Beat.

While I don't have any concrete idea of just what the figure is trying to do exactly, I get the general feeling that he is trying to mess with the past in a very circumspect way. He tweaks Harry's attitude towards certain ideas, and frankly gets him to behave differently then he otherwise would have. This sounds suspiciously similar to how Bob suggests handling time travel during their impromptu (and out of the blue) discussion on the subject in Proven Guilty...right before Little Chicago was mysteriously repaired.

Offline KevinSig

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Re: The Leather Duster time travel theory
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2012, 02:40:31 PM »
The problem with this, is that the unconscious mind interacts with Lashiel later in the series.  So it isn't just Harry that has seen him.

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Re: The Leather Duster time travel theory
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2012, 03:03:46 PM »
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"Concentrate on what you will do, not what you should have done."

Heh...Vadderung said that the best way to change history is to affect the future.
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Re: The Leather Duster time travel theory
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2012, 03:04:42 PM »
The problem with this, is that the unconscious mind interacts with Lashiel later in the series.  So it isn't just Harry that has seen him.

I did think about that. Lash never really acknowledges Harry's interpretation that the figure is his subconscious mind. She addresses both figures as 'Gentlemen'. If you pay attention to the interaction between the two, the mysterious figure suggests, but makes no actual choices. He talks about resisting Lash's temptation, but ultimately the choice is up to "Conscious" Harry. The mental 'Key' to unlock the shackles around Lash comes from the Harry of Dead Beat, not the mysterious figure. This would also be perfectly true if Harry was talking to his past self.

To add further weight to the interpretation, Lash admits in White Night that she views time as mostly an illusion. Speaking to a Future Harry as part of bargaining wouldn't be a huge deal to her, and I can well imagine Future Harry's first bargain with her to not directly tip off his past self to what he's up to. He admits to talking to her for months, but gives no specifics about *what* they were discussing.

The figure once again gets Harry to commit to doing an action that goes against the grain of his present sensibilities, something he wouldn't otherwise do or even consider.

Offline Ben de Wal

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Re: The Leather Duster time travel theory
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2012, 03:05:56 PM »
 unless f future harry left his shadow in  his own mind like lash i would be posible if lash come back for harry to learn how to do it  if it is abit thin.... ;)

Offline spameroo

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Re: The Leather Duster time travel theory
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2012, 03:52:23 PM »
unless f future harry left his shadow in  his own mind like lash i would be posible if lash come back for harry to learn how to do it  if it is abit thin.... ;)
What if Future Harry is the parasite O_o

Offline macgregor98

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Re: The Leather Duster time travel theory
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2012, 03:53:28 PM »
The problem with this, is that the unconscious mind interacts with Lashiel later in the series.  So it isn't just Harry that has seen him.

Maybe not...who's to say That harry isn't going to be able to do some sort of Astral projection through time?
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Offline Ms Duck

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Re: The Leather Duster time travel theory
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2012, 04:42:33 PM »
Ok, feel free to ignore this-

idea one: youre on to something. future harry is trying to reach younger harry, thru his subconcious

idea two: how? well there is something that likely exists outside of time, the mantle.

idea three: now theres been no suggestion that a knight can do this normally, but its also been specualted harry can change the mantle with soulfire...
Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


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Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: The Leather Duster time travel theory
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2012, 04:46:24 PM »
Ok, feel free to ignore this-

idea one: youre on to something. future harry is trying to reach younger harry, thru his subconcious

idea two: how? well there is something that likely exists outside of time, the mantle.

idea three: now theres been no suggestion that a knight can do this normally, but its also been specualted harry can change the mantle with soulfire...

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Offline Ms Duck

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Re: The Leather Duster time travel theory
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2012, 04:48:50 PM »
Bwahahahahquackqauck!

welcome to the club :D
Yeah, but Germans and Hungarians don't pull people's theories out of their sockets when they're challenged.  Ducks are known to do that.


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Re: The Leather Duster time travel theory
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2012, 05:05:44 PM »
i'd say it has less to do with time travel as it does residual self image. basically subconscious harry always wanted to be wearing a cool leather duster. when he plugs into the matrix he gets leather, cause its what he wants an likes. susan is just female and totally in love so she's smart enough to pick up on harrys subconscious hint drops harry himself is too stupid to outright tell her. psychoanalystize ;D shrunk?

Offline despicableme

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Re: The Leather Duster time travel theory
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2012, 05:08:54 PM »
Sounds dumbass even to my while I type...but I like like the symetry (sp.!)

Fallen Angels (Denarians) have shadows.  Copies that have a life of their own.
Harry has a shadow (subconscious harry).  Which can interact without his knowledge with other shadows

Harry part angel?


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« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 01:12:13 AM by Priscellie »

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Re: The Leather Duster time travel theory
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2012, 05:12:32 PM »
I like it a lot, if that helps any.

Also, I don't think it needs astral projection or Harry casting a shadow in his own mind; we see in GP that it's possible to touch people's dreams from the NN, the Nightmare does it.  Time-travelling Harry in the NN contacting his past self's dreams would work for me, as past-Harry is fairly solidly unconscious in all those instances iirc.  And as far as Lash seeing time-travelling Harry goes, that could fit under the heading of the things she says he won't understand until he dies.
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Offline Tami Seven

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Re: The Leather Duster time travel theory
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2012, 05:13:36 PM »
I find this idea very interesting.

My suggestion is that IF Harry really is doing this, then maybe it's a form of Astral Projection. His physical body stays in place, but his soul/spirit makes a time travel trip back to speak with his younger self at various critical moments.

How? Well, GS showed how. When he was in his 'Coma' his soul traveled out like a ghost. Perhaps he learned that this was something he could do voluntarily, using magic. All he would need is a focus, a link back to his younger self, a kind of temporal Thaumaturgy.

War Cry -
"Thomas doesn't fight back, not even for an instant. In the end, it's not common sense that pulls me back from the brink, or even fear of being devoured by the Shoggoth....It's the look of unshakeable trust in my Brother's eyes, even as my hands tighten around his throat."

Offline rekshek

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Re: The Leather Duster time travel theory
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2012, 05:15:52 PM »
Sounds dumbass even to my while I type...but I like like the symetry (sp.!)

Fallen Angels (Denarians) have shadows.  Copies that have a life of their own.
Harry has a shadow (subconscious harry).  Which can interact without his knowledge with other shadows

Harry part angel?

darker thought, that is the source harry draws from to fuel his soulfire spells, each time he uses them he becomes a bit closer to ID Harry. Thus as corrupts the original intention of the soulfire (creation) it corrupts him to his darker ID. New hypothesis time!

Leave it to Harry to take something seemingly pure and taint it, just as he purified some taint earlier.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 05:17:57 PM by rekshek »