Author Topic: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]  (Read 18993 times)

Offline Serack

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Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« on: December 29, 2012, 03:48:52 AM »
TCF posted the quote below in his own topic with respect to Xrpt#1 (quoted at the bottom of this topic), and it caused me to do some serious thinking that included enough research and quotes that I am posting my thoughts in this separate topic.

How do you expect these two forces to interact in the long term?

Personally I'm expecting the Soulfire to change the Winter Knight mantle.

Hmmmm.

It is almost as if Harry is forging his soul into the essence of the mantle, and the long term effect might be truly interesting...  TCF's quoting of Xrpt#1 in this context really emphasizes the relevance of this.

The interaction between Harry and Mother Summerxrpt#3 probably applies directly to the idea that Harry's use of soulfire might change the Winter Knight Mantle.  In their conversation Mother Summer is talking about how rather than the mantle changing him, he could change it.  Couple that with the earlier conversationxrpt#2 about Harry's choice to be informed about what was really going on possibly changing him, which I think was causing Mother Summer to remember the ways she had changed to become who she is now.  This implies that Harry might have some growing to do.  Heck the Gatekeeper is one of the few we are sure knows about this stuff, and he has been around a very long time.

Then remember how Harry's experiences with Lash brought Uriel's attention upon himxrpt#5, and how that caused Uriel to go a long ways out of his way to help Harry understand that he had a chance to retain himself against the mantle.Ghost Story  This is important because not only does it show that Harry has experience retaining his self in the face of enormous pressure to give in to power to subsume  his will ala Lasciel's coin, but it also shows that in fighting off that pressure, he changed LascielXrpt#4.  And if you have read my favorite Lash theories, you know that I feel that it was his own soul that was used in soulfire to change Lash.  (Heck, Jim has said, "You might note that Lash essentially committed suicide with her “free will.” A choice which rather strongly resembles another choice a few books later in the series." which is kinda similar to saying that Lash was reshaped into Harry's image)

Also, I thought Harry's "No one can chain the Hulk!" comment when he used the soulfire in Xrpt#1 to break Mother Winter's will shackles was a funny pop culture reference, but after rereading Xrpt#4 it also seems like an interesting coincidence considering it's the only other time I remember The Hulk being mentioned in the series (although there might be others).

A new thought though:  Harry is wearing more than one mantle now.  And here's the exciting part... Harry deliberately forged his soul into the spell that bound him to Demonreach making him the Warden.

So having pointed all those references in the books, what can we postulate about the future?

Not only will Harry succeed in retaining who he is rather than the Winter Mantle taking that away from him, but his use of Soulfire while the Winter Knight will Reforge the mantle into the shape of his soul.  And since that soul is also forged into his role as The Warden, these two mantles (WAG) will become inextricable from each other. 

The consequences of this could mean that either all the future Winter Knights will also be The Warden, or that Harry will become particularly long lived (maybe even nigh immortal) as part of this reforged job title.

Finally a WoJ:
Quote from: 2012 AMA WoJ
sapph42: When Dresden killed Aurora, her power flowed to the nearest vessel of Summer, which happened to be the presumably mortal Lily (the Summer Knight). If Dresden killed Maeve, would he become a Winter Lord, or are there rules in place mandating gender?
Jim: 3) There are rules in places of course. (On the other hand, Harry's the kind of guy that says, "That's what my captain keeps telling me.") But the real rule in play here would be a much simpler one: you can't fill a cup that is already full. You need an empty one. Or a really big one that isn't topped off.

The implication here is that if Harry were a cup, or vessel for Jobs/Mantles, then he is full to capacity, and can't take no more.  We know that Lily got the Summer Lady mantle when she was the Summer Knight, so that alone isn't enough to mandate that Harry's cup is too full, so what Mantles does Harry wear/Job descriptions does he hold?
  • White Council Member (card carrying, the paperwork for his re-admittance has been filed)
  • Vanilla Warden Regional Commander
  • Sword of The Cross Custodian x2 (currently proxied out to Murph, his Robin)
  • Host to some unidentified "parasite"
  • Mortal Soulfire Wielder
  • Starborn (Whatever that means)
  • The Warden of Demonreach
  • Winter Knight

In summary, these last 4 titles are likely to be reforged into something that might be described as transcendent.  Maybe even "as close to a saint" as Harry can get.


(the spoiler tag below is to condense the quotes since they get lengthy, not for actual spoilerage hiding)

(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 04:53:20 AM by Serack »
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Offline Serack

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2012, 03:52:35 AM »
By the way, if I missed a job/title that could be considered taking up volume in Harry's "cup" please mention it for consideration in "the list"
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Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2012, 04:23:26 AM »
The implication here is that if Harry were a cup, or vessel for Jobs/Mantles, then he is full to capacity, and can't take no more.  We know that Lily got the Summer Lady mantle when she was the Summer Knight, so that alone isn't enough to mandate that Harry's cup is too full, so what Mantles does Harry wear/Job descriptions does he hold?

There are so many inappropriate cup size jokes I could make here....

And seeing this makes me want to dust off my old giant theory skills, I don't think I've done any giant theories since the Yogg-Saron one on the old WoW Story forum and the Darkspawn as Bioweapons one.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 04:27:27 AM by TheCuriousFan »
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Offline Ms Duck

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2012, 04:24:22 AM »
Hmmm veddy veddy interesting.
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Offline peregrine

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2012, 04:33:16 AM »
By the way, if I missed a job/title that could be considered taking up volume in Harry's "cup" please mention it for consideration in "the list"
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Offline peregrine

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2012, 04:43:58 AM »
Though some of those things may be less like filling a cup, and more like also using that cup as a paperweight, and as a very nice conversation piece.  Different uses that don't affect the primary purpose.

Offline HistoryDave

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2012, 04:48:59 AM »
Something to consider...
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Offline peregrine

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2012, 04:53:41 AM »
Oh, also Esquire of the Summer Court (Or whatever that is).  The favor may have been used up, but that doesn't mean the title is gone.

Offline Serack

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2012, 04:58:02 AM »
There are so many inappropriate cup size jokes I could make here....

And seeing this makes me want to dust off my old giant theory skills, I don't think I've done any giant theories since the Yogg-Saron one on the old WoW Story forum and the Darkspawn as Bioweapons one.

After generating most of the excerpts, I started writing the theory in bits and pieces in a response to your origional topic, and it wasn't until the chunk fell into place about the Warden's mantle getting donned with the use of soulfire that I definitively decided that this was going to get it's own topic. 

Then I went out for dinner, and watched "Lincoln" with Mrs. Serack and came back and added a lot more material and polish before publishing.
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Offline Gman

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2012, 05:05:02 AM »
The Mantles do change over time (usually centuries). Vadderung said as much. How much do they change and how rapidly probably depends on what the being who is using the mantel is doing. I think Harry may be able to change the WK mantle some. He is really powerful, strong willed and stubborn.

Offline Ben de Wal

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2012, 05:14:50 AM »
 i'm not sure that  the winter mantle and  the wardens mantel will get lumped into on mantel then demonreach and mab would have to choose harry sucsesor...  will they feed and grow in to two changed mantles  while being in one  person while using  soulfire  i can get on board with   that 

Offline Serack

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2012, 05:33:56 AM »
i'm not sure that  the winter mantle and  the wardens mantel will get lumped into on mantel then demonreach and mab would have to choose harry sucsesor...  will they feed and grow in to two changed mantles  while being in one  person while using  soulfire  i can get on board with   that

You touch on some important points that I didn't address in my post.

The thing is, if the two mantles merged, that means that Demonreach would fall into Winter's sphere of influence.  Mab's comments to Demonreach at the end of GS, and Harry's command to Demonreach about interring her if she kills him at the end of CD strongly imply that the Wardenship is DEFINITELY not under Mab's purview as it stands now, whereas the Winter Knight Mantle is nothing but an extension of her own power that must be wielded by a mortal vessel. 

Those two qualities are kinda exclusive, and that oil and water exclusion would have to be addressed for this WAG to work.  One of the reasons why I think this might work out is that Winter didn't always have custodianship over the Outer Gates... Which is evidence that the Winter purview does change. 
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Offline Ben de Wal

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2012, 05:38:57 AM »
You touch on some important points that I didn't address in my post.

The thing is, if the two mantles merged, that means that Demonreach would fall into Winter's sphere of influence.  Mab's comments to Demonreach at the end of GS, and Harry's command to Demonreach about interring her if she kills him at the end of CD strongly imply that the Wardenship is DEFINITELY not under Mab's purview as it stands now, whereas the Winter Knight Mantle is nothing but an extension of her own power that must be wielded by a mortal vessel. 

Those two qualities are kinda exclusive, and that oil and water exclusion would have to be addressed for this WAG to work.  One of the reasons why I think this might work out is that Winter didn't always have custodianship over the Outer Gates... Which is evidence that the Winter purview does change.
  the way i see  Demonreach and mab  are in the same field of work so maybe they could be alies??? iwag that the island and the outergates touch

Offline huangjimmy108

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2012, 05:52:55 AM »
List of mantle of power that currently Harry hold in his cup:

1. Star born: gained by birth, possibly include naming abilities.
2. Wizard: mortal magic, gained by birth, training and diciplin.
3. Shadow lash: a portion of Laschiel's power obtained when he touch the coin. If not outright power, it at least had knowledge.
4. Soulfire
5. Warden of Demonreach
6. Winter knight

That is all that I think is relevant. Forge all of this into one single powerful mantle and Harry will be ripe to be sacrifice on the stone table. Then Mab can gave that new mantle to Thomas and obtain the white court's psychic abilities for her future knight as well.
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Offline spameroo

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Re: Reforging a Mantle + My cup is full [CD Spoilers]
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2012, 06:59:57 AM »
There are so many inappropriate cup size jokes I could make here....

And seeing this makes me want to dust off my old giant theory skills, I don't think I've done any giant theories since the Yogg-Saron one on the old WoW Story forum and the Darkspawn as Bioweapons one.

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