Author Topic: FATE Core and DFRPG  (Read 12847 times)

Offline admiralducksauce

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FATE Core and DFRPG
« on: December 04, 2012, 12:13:38 PM »
Hey all, now that Evil Hat's FATE Core Kickstarter is open, anyone considering trying to convert their DFRPG games over to the new hotness? Any hiccups so far?

I figure this thread could work as a repository for those hiccups, either ones I run into or if anyone else is trying this.

Offline Skimble

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Re: FATE Core and DFRPG
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2012, 04:48:54 PM »
I'm definitely going to adopt at least some of the conflict resolution systems from Fate Core as I think they bring an awesome extra level of dramatic control to the hands of my players. I look forward to watching them squirm on the horns of this dilemma: Do they just fail, or do they succeed at some heavy cost? Ahhh, drama fuel!

On the subject of DFRPG interacting with Fate Core, I've been discussing with Leonard Balsera how the new system deals with what would have been Blocks in Dresden Files. Specifically Shield evocations. The new system doesn't have Blocks but instead handles 'block actions' as Gain Advantage actions that set up an Aspect that needs to be overcome in order to pursue a certain action.

Here's how our conversation went:

Leonard's comments are in bold.

Hi hi, been pumping for answers on Twitter and Fred asked me to put them here instead. I'm liking the core contest rules but there's a bit of adjustment needed in my head from the Dresden rules (which I'm still getting to grips with anyway!)

I'd like to implement the clear, concise conflict resolution system in Fate Core in my Dresden game but I'm a little confused by the replacement for "Block". The sidebar says that to 'block' one now generally instead creates an Aspect with "Create Advantage" that must be Overcome. It then goes on to say that to Defend another person requires a full defence action. I take this to mean that one can defend someone else by setting up an obstacle (for example a book-case that can be hidden behind) that must be Overcome OR one can directly defend for someone else by taking a Full Defence action. Is this correct?

So, here's as concise as I can get it, and I'll review the draft to get it clearer.

* You can't use the normal Defend action to defend someone else from an attack, unless it's the only thing you do on your turn (aka full defense).

* You *can* put yourself between an attacker and a target, but that just means they're attacking you instead.

* You *can* create an advantage that forces the attacker to overcome an obstacle before they attack, which might disrupt the attack.


Thanks Leonard: Okay, so I'd read it right; I think it was the use of - between the two clauses that made them look like one followed directly from the other.

I was giving a concrete example on Twitter because I had a similar situation come up last night in my Dresden game.
A Wizard used Force magic to set up a Manoeuvre/Block to force a spirit creature out of a trailer just as it was about to scythe a victim. He did this by channelling 3 points into an Evocation for a Manoeuvre with some extra shifts to make it more potent, applying the Forced Out aspect to the spirit. He could just as easily have set up a 5-shift Block to stop the spirit, and that's what I'll assume for the purposes of conceptualising the new rules.
Under the new rules the Block would be represented as him taking a Gain Advantage action (and an Evocation) to apply the Magic Force Field Aspect to the scene. The spirit would then have needed to Overcome that Aspect (presumably needing to get more shifts than went into setting it up?) to get through it, presuming it's reasonable for it to penetrate a magic wall of force?

What about the good old shield-bracelet magic bullet shield? I presume the player would manoeuvre to Gain Advantage, setting up an Aspect of "Magic Shield", and then apply that Aspect to defend himself from bullets etc. when making a Defend roll against firearms attacks. Alternatively is it simply assumed bullets can't hit him while the Magic Shield is in effect unless the attacker rolls to Overcome the defence? This might vary according to who's a PC and who's an NPC, if you could answer the 'core interpretation' of both situations that would be really helpful.
I guess I'm a little concerned that the flexibility of multiple possible approaches to dealing with this sort of thing might make it hard to be consistent from one encounter to another if I forget what I did last time and work it out from first principles all over again.

In the alternate quantum universe where I had Fate Core before I designed Dresden, I would likely have said that evocation blocks/wards/whatever are technically creating an advantage, and I probably would extend the success with style rules to say that there's another free invocation to stack on at 5 shifts, then again at 7, etc.

Then, the option would go to the caster as to how he wants to let those ablate - as invocations s/he checks off over time when s/he defends, or as an imposed obstacle that s/he gives a value to in the moment, using several of those at once. All the player has to worry about in the moment is "oh, something is bumping on my shield, I get to do something".

In the fiction, that would mean that the rubric for duration for that kind of thing would switch over to "as long as the spell energy lasts". Which some people would consider apropos for Dresden, in any case.
With my luck, though, that solution breaks eight other things in Dresden. :)


Thanks very much. I like the idea of Duration coming down to 'available spell energy' where you get multiple 'hits' according to how much energy is in it. Extra free Invocations at higher shifts seems like a good way of doing it, and it does seem more in keeping with the way Harry uses his shields than a shield of fixed duration. He generally seems to be able to hold his shields up indefinitely with them only draining him when he actually takes hits.

This does lead me to ask: Are there plans to release a short document updating the Dresden Magic and other systems (where necessary) to work with Fate Core? In the meantime I really like what you've done with the 3, 5, 7 etc. shift shield idea and I might just implement that as is!

 It seems that this is a really easy way to implement any Evocation that lasts a matter of turns; you can sustain it with Fate Points after that, but once you're outta Fate points and out of free invocations, it's gone. Would you require an invocation every time the shield's used defensively if you were using the mechanic you suggested to stop it from lingering more than a few turns? Otherwise it would last the scene like any other 'sticky' Aspect, right?

Require an invocation? Probably not - for all practical intents and purposes, it's a scene aspect like any other, as you suggest.

So I could see charging up a shield when a fight starts and saving it a while for when you really need it.


That seems reasonable to me. Once you're out of Fate Points or tags it would only be a limited defence, so would represent the stage at which Harry's still just about holding up a guttering shield. I might be inclined to have an attack that went through it at that stage overcome the shield and put it out altogether, as it's on its last legs in those circumstances.

Offline admiralducksauce

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Re: FATE Core and DFRPG
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2012, 05:05:05 PM »
I just saw this conversation in the Kickstarter comments. Kudos to you for importing it over here, thanks.

Offline LCDarkwood

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Re: FATE Core and DFRPG
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2012, 05:07:25 PM »
Thanks for posting this, Skimble.


-Lenny

Offline lordoracle

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Re: FATE Core and DFRPG
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2012, 08:16:11 PM »

It would be a perfect time for me to do it. I am still learning the FATE 3.0 in the DFRPG. If I converted, I would not have to unlearn that much.

Is it too late to get in on it?

Hey all, now that Evil Hat's FATE Core Kickstarter is open, anyone considering trying to convert their DFRPG games over to the new hotness? Any hiccups so far?

I figure this thread could work as a repository for those hiccups, either ones I run into or if anyone else is trying this.
"If you steal from one author, it's plagiarism; if you steal from many, it's research." - Wilson Mizner

Offline admiralducksauce

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Re: FATE Core and DFRPG
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2012, 08:49:29 PM »
It would be a perfect time for me to do it. I am still learning the FATE 3.0 in the DFRPG. If I converted, I would not have to unlearn that much.

Is it too late to get in on it?

No way. The kickstarter hasn't been live for a day yet and it's already well on its way through some amazing stretch goals. Any pledge amount will get you the preview rules immediately, and I honestly don't see any reason NOT to pledge, unless you're somehow blocked by locale or are truly more broke than Harry Dresden. :)

I'm still reading through it and it's definitely still FATE, but it's definitely different in some ways too. I could probably convert my campaign about mostly-mortal monster-hunting bikers without too much trouble. If I had a party of wizards, I might be less gung-ho about trying to convert things myself, but then that's why this thread is here. Hell, we've already had Skimble post a method for doing barrier spells.

Offline Skimble

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Re: FATE Core and DFRPG
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2012, 09:11:13 PM »
I don't think it will be too hard to integrate the Dresden magic system as-is, to be honest. Barrier spells were a bit of an exception because the new rules have done away with the Block action altogether. To me that makes sense really as if you get right down to it Block was always basically a manoeuvre, just one without an Aspect to go along with it. Having said that you could use the rules as they are in DFRPG by making shield spells a border or armour instead.

Evocation attacks and manoeuvres should work as-is, I think. Optionally you might want to give extra tags (or free invocations as they're called in Fate Core) at the 5- and 7-shift points for manoeuvres as well but that seems like it could be adopted as a general rule to reward extremely competent success.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: FATE Core and DFRPG
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2012, 09:57:53 PM »
Backed, downloaded.

I've been looking forward to this for a while; its content determines whether I'll move forward with some of my more ambitious projects.

I'm ambivalent about the removal of Blocks, which I liked, but I'll reserve judgement until I've actually read the book.

I was intrigued by the retailer and consultation levels, but I'm not a retailer and I really shouldn't blow more than a month's rent on a Kickstarter so I just went for the book. Maybe I'll up my pledge for a signed copy later, not sure yet.

Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: FATE Core and DFRPG
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2012, 10:01:25 PM »
I'm currently skimming through the ebook book (which is a dated version, making me think it might see several updates during the editing process).

The Kickstarter has 50+ days to go.  For $30 you get a hardcover book (+$10 shipping if you don't live in the US) plus a bunch of ebook expansions. 
This currenly includes a fantasy adventure, a WWI-meets-Battlestar-Galactica mini-campaign, a magic system toolkit, Wild Blue (a mash-up of cowboys, fantasy, and superheroes), Court/Ship (alien invasion set during the court of Louis XV), Burn Shift (post-apocalyptic mutant future), and an expansion dealing with fire fighters.

Other ebooks, including No Exit, the Ellis Affair, Crime World (written by Leverage television show head writer John Rogers), and possibly others, have not been unlocked yet, but it seems like they will be added to the package.

So there's the physical copy of the Core + 7 - 10 ebooks for the same price as the core - which sounds like a great deal.

Richard

Offline Skimble

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Re: FATE Core and DFRPG
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2012, 10:50:39 PM »
Two other major changes in Fate Core: No Social stress track (social conflict is now just a specific type of Mental conflict; I think this makes sense as the difference between them was always a little fuzzy anyway) and you get just one set of Consequences for both Physical and Mental conflicts.

My gut reaction to the merged consequences was to not like it due to the illogical nature of not being able to, say, get a mild headache in the same scene as one sprains an ankle, but on the other hand it should speed conflicts up a bit and limit the overall number of consequences suffered by a given character.

Offline admiralducksauce

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Re: FATE Core and DFRPG
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2012, 11:00:40 PM »
Quote
you get just one set of Consequences for both Physical and Mental conflicts.

I'm pretty sure the consequences "pool" was always combined. IE, one mild, one moderate, one severe, one extreme, it was just the type of consequence (social/mental/physical) that sometimes came up.

The combination of mental and social stress will make it harder for casters, as they already use the rarely-touched Mental stress track for "ammo". I personally don't mind, and honestly I don't think things will break no matter which way you decide here.

Offline Skimble

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Re: FATE Core and DFRPG
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2012, 11:03:36 PM »
OMG, mind blown. That's another rule I obviously read wrong based on the fact that you can get additional Mild Consequences that /are/ specifically for Mental or Physical by getting the relevant skill (Endurance or Discipline) at a high enough rating.

Offline Shadowman17

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Re: FATE Core and DFRPG
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2012, 12:18:32 AM »
Am I wrong in thinking that you can always add custom rules on top of Fate Core? So for instance, you could have additional stress tracks, like social.

Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: FATE Core and DFRPG
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2012, 12:23:57 AM »
The rules are presented in a very clear way.  In some respects they are simplified. 

For example, the "skill pyramid" is a pyramid - not an obelisk or something that players can shape.  20 skill points = one at Great (+4), two at Good (+3), three at Fair (+2), and four at Average (+1).

It's clear that the writers have been reading forums and have addressed every point of confusion they saw being debated.  In several places the language has been restructured to avoid confusion.  Free tags (which are no longer called tags) have their own section.

This book has the feel of "this is the default stuff, source books will redefine things further" generic type book - like GURPS, Savage Worlds, etc.

It wouldn't take a lot of work to adapt DFRPG to the new core setting - especially after we see some of those bonus books.  Looking at their titles, I have to wonder how close the "magic system toolkit" will resemble DFRPG.  If it's close enough then that might do the bulk of the updating for us.

Richard

Offline Blackknight1239

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Re: FATE Core and DFRPG
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2012, 02:06:33 AM »
I just tossed my forty bucks at the kickstarter, and I'm really happy with what I'm seeing. I'm pretty sure this is gonna improve my Dresden game just by reading it.

But what I'm wondering about possibly adapting Dresden to the new system is why couldn't Magic be handled by an "Evocation" and "Thaumatugry" skill that you just pay refresh to take? It seems to me that the DFRPG has a lot of stuff that make magic a little convoluted the first couple reads through. It would fit in the "simpler" direction FATE Core seems to like.