Author Topic: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]  (Read 9962 times)

Offline FirstSelector

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2012, 10:23:22 AM »
I like this idea.  I will admit that bringing up the three goddesses idea seemed to distract from my original idea a bit (tying in the Mothers to the Fates), but if instead the three Fates are some combination of traits from each of the various Queens (Mother Winter's malice, Titania's motheriness, and the Ladies' youthfulness), that would clear up the issue.

I also admit that I saw Mother Summer and Winter interacting a bit like Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg (from Discworld) in my head.

However, that begs the question of how the Mothers came to be in the first place.  We know Mab was mortal once and a WoJ suggests she got her power via an ascension ritual.  But Mother Winter has never stepped down (while Mother Summer did, which is another interesting topic in and of itself), so Mother Winter must have either existed before and took up a new role or was mortal herself.

Offline Tami Seven

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2012, 11:41:43 AM »
I like this idea.  I will admit that bringing up the three goddesses idea seemed to distract from my original idea a bit (tying in the Mothers to the Fates), but if instead the three Fates are some combination of traits from each of the various Queens (Mother Winter's malice, Titania's motheriness, and the Ladies' youthfulness), that would clear up the issue.

I also admit that I saw Mother Summer and Winter interacting a bit like Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg (from Discworld) in my head.

However, that begs the question of how the Mothers came to be in the first place.  We know Mab was mortal once and a WoJ suggests she got her power via an ascension ritual.  But Mother Winter has never stepped down (while Mother Summer did, which is another interesting topic in and of itself), so Mother Winter must have either existed before and took up a new role or was mortal herself.

It's the position, not the current holder of the position that is important. Wasn't it said someplace that Fae don't reproduce with other Fae but with mortals? Meaning that most new Fae started out as changelings? Though creating a Fae from a mortal, (aka Molly) is not something I fully expected to be possible but I guess it is.

One note, one of the names used by Harry to Summon Mother Winter was Skuld. In Norse myth, Skuld is the Norn of the Future. Mother Winter should have been summoned using the name Uršr (Or Urd).
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Offline Elegast

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2012, 11:44:51 AM »
One note, one of the names used by Harry to Summon Mother Winter was Skuld. In Norse myth, Skuld is the Norn of the Future. Mother Winter should have been summoned using the name Uršr (Or Urd).

Why? Death, cold and darkness is the future of the universe. So Skuld does seem more logical.
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Offline Tami Seven

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2012, 12:10:23 PM »
Why? Death, cold and darkness is the future of the universe. So Skuld does seem more logical.

The future hasn't happened yet, so is usually represented as the youngest (like with baby new year, or the three goddesses in the Manga), the one creates the threads of fate. The past has happened, so is the oldest, the one who cuts the threads of fate. 
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 12:40:23 PM by Elegast »
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Offline Villentretenmerth

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2012, 12:18:30 PM »
I don't disagree that they may have other, older names - we certainly have evidence that several mythological entities may in fact be different facets of the same being.  In fact, I think it is very likely that they have additional "masks," as it were.

It's not likely, it's fact - confirmed at the end of the book by a certain overly clever one-eyed dude.
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Offline Phariah

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2012, 03:27:59 PM »
another ID of them seems to fit well. Kali the Earth Mother and Goddess of murder. they could share that title well taking different aspects.
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Offline Arkham8

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2012, 03:32:14 PM »
It's not likely, it's fact - confirmed at the end of the book by a certain overly clever one-eyed dude.

My question about Kringle/Odin is if they are really the "same person". Is it different aspects of the same 'power' taking on anthropization? Is it like America Gods, where the belief that the two are different lead them to actually BE different?

I guess the simple way to put it is...could Kringle and Odin be in the same room, at the same time?

I also admit that I saw Mother Summer and Winter interacting a bit like Granny Weatherwax and Nanny Ogg (from Discworld) in my head.

I got that vibe myself, which is why I posited that the name Mother Winter does not appreciate is "Crone".

You know, Maiden, Mother, and...the other one.
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Offline Serack

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2012, 03:59:08 PM »
You really should add this WOJ to the OP :)

Priscillie asked Jim if the Erlking is Wyldfae at DragonCon and posted this reply:
Jim: He is wyldfae.  He isn't a subject of Mab or Titania.  That's what Wyldfae means.  But his origins are in the Summer-side of the cycle of seasons, just like Titania's are.
Ditto Santa, only in Winter.  :)
(He /is/ beholden to Mother Summer, but basically everyone in Faerie is, so.)
(I mean, that's like saying "you must obey the law of gravity."  Duh.)
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Jim:  Something like that, yes.  :)
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I added bold and italics to the part that made me think they were the fates long before now.
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Offline Raptor

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2012, 08:23:56 PM »
I'll take a WAG here: They were originally Hecate (or at least were joined into 1 entity as Hecate for a while)

Quote
Hecate or Hekate is an ancient goddess, frequently depicted in triple form and variously associated with crossroads, entrance-ways, fire, light, the Moon, magic, witchcraft, knowledge of herbs and poisonous plants, necromancy, and sorcery. She has rulership over earth, sea and sky, as well as a more universal role as Saviour (Soteira), Mother of Angels and the Cosmic World Soul.

Next WAG: The 3rd entity that is missing is Mother Nature.

Offline AnnatarLotW

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2012, 08:57:47 PM »
Speculation:
If we accept that Mothers Winter and Summer have a corresponding Maiden, then we must speculate on who that would be.  My best guess at the moment is that the role of the Maiden is played by the Summer Lady.  It is not known what true purpose the Ladies' power fulfills, or at least it hasn't been revealed.

Given that Clotho is associated with life and giving birth, it seems more reasonable that the Summer Lady would serve in this role rather than the Winter Lady.  It would also fit with the "youngness" of the Summer Lady, and it is not unreasonable to draw the connection between the Lady and Mother.
I would dispute equating the three Fates of Greek/Roman mythology with the Maiden/Mother/Crone. The Maiden by her very nature is just that - MAIDEN. She's not gonna be having kids any time soon. That's the Mother's job - hence why she's called the Mother.

Also, most depictions of the three Fates from Greek/Roman times is of 3 Crones, not a maiden/mother/crone set.

Offline hamlet

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2012, 09:00:19 PM »
The Mothers are the Crones.
The Queens are the Mothers.
The Ladies are the Maidens.
Maiden, Mother and Crone is one of the oldest mythical tropes out there, and sees countless expressions in real world religion and in fiction.

(On a side note, my favorite expression of the three is with Eve in Sandman - she's all three personally.)

Actually . . .

The concept of the maiden/mother/crone triune goddess thing is only about 100 years old, based on since discredited research by Robert Graves.

Tripple goddesses in history have been, historically speaking, all the same age.  The three norns, the three fates, etc., they're all old crones, not one of each of the three.

The Three Faces of Eve might be a more profitable avenue of exploration, instead.

Offline mtimms

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2012, 03:40:29 PM »
Perhaps a third fate, the one that measures, resides on earth rather than faerie.

Offline Cryostasis

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2012, 02:48:01 AM »
All this talk of three's, and mention in all the DF books of the "power of three", seems totally relevant, but everyone seems to be missing a point.

Aside from Winter and Summer, there IS a third faerie court that has been mentioned and featured numerously. the Erlking. So then, does the Erlking's court have a child/parent position?

Offline lilylis

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2012, 03:00:51 AM »
All this talk of three's, and mention in all the DF books of the "power of three", seems totally relevant, but everyone seems to be missing a point.

Aside from Winter and Summer, there IS a third faerie court that has been mentioned and featured numerously. the Erlking. So then, does the Erlking's court have a child/parent position?
not just a third Faerie court rather other powerful courts and beings from the Wylde Fae. The Erlkonig is but one of those. And Kris Kringle another...although he turns out to be even more that that....he seems to just play at being Fae.
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Offline Dust Bunny

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2012, 03:03:55 AM »
And Kris Kringle another...although he turns out to be even more that that....he seems to just play at being Fae.

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