Author Topic: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]  (Read 14407 times)

Offline FirstSelector

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The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« on: November 28, 2012, 01:04:26 AM »
This may have been kicked around before, but I haven't been able to find a similar theory.  My apologies if so.

We meet the Mothers for the second time in Cold Days, but in a rather unique way.  Harry attempts to summon Mother Winter... and it works.  His summoning reveals, I think, a very important gap in our knowledge.

Premise:
The Mothers, along with a heretofore unknown entity, are the Fates.

Background:
The Fates are three women that appear in various mythologies who control the destinies of mortals.  I will use the Greek names for concreteness.  There is Clotho, the spinner of the thread of life, Lachesis, who measured the length, and Atropos, who cut it with her shears.

Another rather prevalent mythos surrounding thee women goddesses is the idea of the Mother, the Maiden, and the Crone.  One can map the three Fates onto the three goddesses easily.

In most of these mythos, the Fates are absurdly powerful, up to deciding on the fates of the Gods themselves.

Claim:
Mother Winter is the Atropos, the Crone; Mother Summer is Lachesis, the Mother; we have yet to identify the Maiden, Clotho.

Supporting evidence:
Perhaps the most obvious evidence is that Harry attempts to summon Mother Winter using the Greek and Norse names for Atropos.

Quote from: Cold Days Ch 31
“I am Harry Dresden, the Winter Knight, and I needs must speak with thee! Athropos! Skuld! Mother Winter, I summon thee!

Quote from: Cold Days Ch 32
Mother Winter’s rocker creaked, though it didn’t really seem to move. “He knew certain names. He was not wholly stupid in choosing them, or wholly wrong in using them.”

While on the subject of names, it is implied twice that there is a name that references both Mother Summer and Winter together.  I suggest that it would be the name of the Fates, which is Moirai in Greek.

Quote from: Cold Days Ch 32
Mother Summer’s bright green eyes narrowed. “Did he . . . ?”
“No,” croaked Mother Winter. “Not that one."

Quote from: Cold Days Ch 33
Mother Summer’s smile appeared for a moment, dazzling me, and then was gone again. “It was not an imbecilic guess,” she said. “And, yes, she has been known by such names before. But you’ve only guessed the name of one of her masks—not our most powerful name.”

Additional evidence is provided by looking at the personalities of Mother Summer and Mother Winter.  Mother Winter is old (so old she can barely walk), does not suffer fools, and is generally not the nicest Fae around.  She is perpetually shrouded in her cloak and has an absolutely evil cackle.  She also has the requisite shears:

Quote from: Summer Knight Ch 26
Mother Winter reached down with her withered hands, and took up a pair of rusted shears. She cut the trailing threads and passed me the cloth.

Mother Summer, on the other hand, is much more matronly and kind.  She bustles around their cottage and tends the house.  She actually tries to put Harry at ease and is generally pleasant.

Speculation:
If we accept that Mothers Winter and Summer have a corresponding Maiden, then we must speculate on who that would be.  My best guess at the moment is that the role of the Maiden is played by the Summer Lady.  It is not known what true purpose the Ladies' power fulfills, or at least it hasn't been revealed.

Quote from: Cold Days Ch 53
“And her duties?” I asked. “What is the purpose of the Winter Lady?”
“That is for her to know,” Mab said.

Given that Clotho is associated with life and giving birth, it seems more reasonable that the Summer Lady would serve in this role rather than the Winter Lady.  It would also fit with the "youngness" of the Summer Lady, and it is not unreasonable to draw the connection between the Lady and Mother.

Conclusion:
I think that Mother Summer and Winter are two of the three Fates, which necessitates identifying the third Fate, the Maiden.

Offline Aminar

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2012, 01:08:04 AM »
I don't think that's their oldest name though.  (On another note I would guess they might be The Norns too.)  I think They were once Lillith or Some of her children.

Offline Silkki

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2012, 01:09:00 AM »
I think fates is bit too easy.

Didn't Momma Sunshine say that "Our name" making it so that they have been a singular entity at some point. Or some god / being that has had duality in it's nature. It's possible Momma Snow and Momma Sunshine were fates at some point, but I don't think it's their oldest identity.

Also Momma snow is _OLD_ so norse/ greek stuff is way too modern.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 01:10:44 AM by Silkki »

Offline alwyn

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2012, 01:11:59 AM »
Jim stated that the mantle of Mother summer has changed once and that Mother Winter never has.
Also Mother Summer asking "Did he... ?" could be construed as fear to an extent, Harry might have the power to unmake beings no matter how powerful if he knew their true name.
This might also explain Uriel's outburst and how Lasciel's shadow changed into Lash.

Offline Hopefire

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2012, 01:16:31 AM »
The Mothers are the Crones.
The Queens are the Mothers.
The Ladies are the Maidens.
Maiden, Mother and Crone is one of the oldest mythical tropes out there, and sees countless expressions in real world religion and in fiction.

(On a side note, my favorite expression of the three is with Eve in Sandman - she's all three personally.)

I think that when you look at the Queen Mothers are being the Crone, the fun part lies in thinking of who they are individually. My current wild guess is that Mother Winter was Eve (yes, THAT Eve).

Or maybe Frau Totenkinder. :p

Offline FirstSelector

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2012, 01:17:00 AM »
I don't disagree that they may have other, older names - we certainly have evidence that several mythological entities may in fact be different facets of the same being.  In fact, I think it is very likely that they have additional "masks," as it were.

Also, to be clear, this shouldn't suggest that the Summer Lady is on the same power level as the Mothers.  In retrospect, the third Fate would likely have to be at equivalent power.  There is, of course, the option that the Maiden hasn't been on screen yet.

The idea that Harry could accidentally unmake Mother Winter by using the wrong name would be totally reasonable, but I felt that in connection with Mother Summer's other comments I figured she was more worried about him knowing their old name.

Offline Elegast

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2012, 01:20:00 AM »
Quote
"It's not your world" said Summer.

I believe it's Mother Earth, and also Gaia.
My "Maeve came to Splattercon!!! disguised as a vampire" theory : Maeve did it

All the theories on the Dresden Files

Offline Arrus

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2012, 04:00:39 AM »
The iron teeth for Mother Winter just make me think of Baba Yaga.  Similar with the cleaver and stew, really.

Offline kokolores

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2012, 04:18:25 AM »
Hard to say who Mother Winter and Mother Summer were when they were still one entity. Some prehistoric mother/earth goddess perhaps. But she could just as well have been the biblical Eve.
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Ghost Harry.
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Ghost Harry.
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Offline Arkham8

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2012, 04:19:36 AM »
Given that Pratchett was directly referenced this time around, I'm led to believe that the name Mother Winter does not wish to be called is Crone, like Granny Weatherwax before her.

As for their Identity, I believe they are two aspects of the same being, Mother Earth or Gaia.
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Offline taininfernus

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2012, 04:57:56 AM »
In Neil Gaiman's Sandman, Titania of Faerie is the only Fae queen that we ever see, however the tripartite goddess is present throughout the story, especially in the climax: The Kindly Ones.

In the first arc of Sandman, Morpheus calls upon Hecate, a triple-form goddess with Maiden, Mother, and Crone aspects.  Later, in a flashback, Orpheus is in Hades to gain back his love.  To do so, he sings a song that makes all of the denizens of Hades cry, including the Furies (Erinyes), the same tripartite goddess, a slight for which they never forgive him and may even have called the Bacchae upon him to tear him apart.  Finally, as the main antagonist of the climax, they appear as The Kindly Ones (Eumenides), again a tripartite goddess, responsible for hounding those who spill family blood.  In the first and last forms, they are clearly Clotho, Lachesis, and Atropos, as they are called by name.  In The Kindly Ones, they are shown at the beginning of the story, Clotho helping to start a weaving, and Lachesis working on it.  At the end, when their business is done, Atropos is seen cutting it short, a metaphor for the life, and story, that they have just ended.

These names, Hecate, Erinyes, Eumenides/Kindly Ones, are used to speak of them when operating for different functions.  Perhaps these are the names that Mother Summer spoke of.
I would think that the Summer Lady is most likely Clotho, though.  It seems to track.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 04:59:28 AM by taininfernus »

Offline Dust Bunny

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2012, 09:02:43 AM »
I also have to agree with the Gaia hypothesis. Having the Summer Lady as Clothos would unbalance Summer and Winter.

Gaia has two sides--light and dark, life and death. Or, as Ian Anderson sings (slightly adjusted as necessary for this case), "(S)he who made kittens put snakes in the grass."
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 11:46:38 PM by Dust Bunny »
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Offline Silkki

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2012, 09:09:51 AM »
Gaia also known as the genious loci of the whole earth! : )
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 09:20:33 AM by Silkki »

Offline Paladino

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2012, 09:45:07 AM »
We do have a WoJ that Mother summer once retired, and the current one is the replacement, so I'm not sure we need to find a third one, for the mother to be the fates..


Offline tuttman1234

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Re: The identity of the Mothers [CD spoilers]
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2012, 10:04:13 AM »
This may have been kicked around before, but I haven't been able to find a similar theory.  My apologies if so.

We meet the Mothers for the second time in Cold Days, but in a rather unique way.  Harry attempts to summon Mother Winter... and it works.  His summoning reveals, I think, a very important gap in our knowledge.

Premise:
The Mothers, along with a heretofore unknown entity, are the Fates.

Background:
The Fates are three women that appear in various mythologies who control the destinies of mortals.  I will use the Greek names for concreteness.  There is Clotho, the spinner of the thread of life, Lachesis, who measured the length, and Atropos, who cut it with her shears.

Another rather prevalent mythos surrounding thee women goddesses is the idea of the Mother, the Maiden, and the Crone.  One can map the three Fates onto the three goddesses easily.

In most of these mythos, the Fates are absurdly powerful, up to deciding on the fates of the Gods themselves.

Claim:
Mother Winter is the Atropos, the Crone; Mother Summer is Lachesis, the Mother; we have yet to identify the Maiden, Clotho.

Supporting evidence:
Perhaps the most obvious evidence is that Harry attempts to summon Mother Winter using the Greek and Norse names for Atropos.

While on the subject of names, it is implied twice that there is a name that references both Mother Summer and Winter together.  I suggest that it would be the name of the Fates, which is Moirai in Greek.

Additional evidence is provided by looking at the personalities of Mother Summer and Mother Winter.  Mother Winter is old (so old she can barely walk), does not suffer fools, and is generally not the nicest Fae around.  She is perpetually shrouded in her cloak and has an absolutely evil cackle.  She also has the requisite shears:

Mother Summer, on the other hand, is much more matronly and kind.  She bustles around their cottage and tends the house.  She actually tries to put Harry at ease and is generally pleasant.

Speculation:
If we accept that Mothers Winter and Summer have a corresponding Maiden, then we must speculate on who that would be.  My best guess at the moment is that the role of the Maiden is played by the Summer Lady.  It is not known what true purpose the Ladies' power fulfills, or at least it hasn't been revealed.

Given that Clotho is associated with life and giving birth, it seems more reasonable that the Summer Lady would serve in this role rather than the Winter Lady.  It would also fit with the "youngness" of the Summer Lady, and it is not unreasonable to draw the connection between the Lady and Mother.

Conclusion:
I think that Mother Summer and Winter are two of the three Fates, which necessitates identifying the third Fate, the Maiden.

I like where you are going with this, but take it a step further. I get the idea that Mother Winter and Mother Summer live together because they are really two parts of the same being. I like the three goddesses approach, but what if, for the DV, the greeks just had a better understanding of the fae courts that Dresden does. I see the relationship between Winter and Summer looking something like this

                                                      Mothers Winter and Summer
                                                                       /\
                                                                      /  \
                                                                     /    \
                                                                  Mab    Titania
                                                                  /          \
                                                                 /             \
                                                                /               \
                                                       WL (Molly)          SL (Sarissa)


I think that they are just two parts of the same thing, like the opposite sides of a coin. And the lower down the chain you go, the less they resemble each other.
Flower gleam and glow, let your power shine. Make the clock reverse, bring back what once was mine. Heal what has been hurt, change the fates design. Save what once was lost, bring back what once was mine, what once was mine.

For Mdodd. Rest in peace friend.

Drip, Drip, Drop.