Author Topic: The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread  (Read 48155 times)

Offline Serack

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The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread
« on: September 14, 2012, 01:35:50 PM »
The purpose of this thread is to attempt to come up with theories that answer the doylist (tvtropes link warning) question, "Why did Jim spend so much effort on developing Little Chicago when it had such little play in the actual events in the series."

I am considering building this topic in more than one part, The first is to show the amount of effort that was put into building this massive Chekov's gun (2nd tvtrops warning) that sure didn't get a lot play compared to it's buildup.  The second part I can think of putting together seperately is a list of things we know/theorize about LC.  The last section will be dedicated to attempting to answer YLC.

So in effect this thread will serve 2 purposes.  The first is to show the significance of LC, and to pull together all the great theories and conclusions we have already built.  The 2nd is to try to push that theorizing forward and find out what this gun might be shooting at later.


Crafting the gun (and showing the significance of the question YLC)

First a list of a few other significant Cerkov's guns that got fired in a book other than the one where they were put on the mantle.  To show that Jim likes to do this.(this will probably morph into it's own topic methinks)
  • Harry's Familiarity with Demonreach
  • The only sex scene that didn't fade to black when the bow chika bowwow started
  • That helpful wampire at the vampire's ball
  • Marcone's magical security consultant's company
  • Lasciel's coin=>hellfire=>Lash's demise (resulting in lash's as per WoJ appearance in GS... yah that gun has a lot more rounds in it too)
  • Dimetri & Persephone

Ok so here are examples of how much of a big deal was made about how much Harry poured into making LC.
  • He continued to pauper himself dispite his increased fiscal security when he started collecting a wardens salary because he was financing the construction of LC. 
  • By PG, he had been "pouring energy into this thing every night for six months, Harry, and right now it's holding about three hundred times the mount of energy that kinetic ring you wear will contain." -bob
  • Harry went through the effort of building "preventative spells" to keep energies from escaping the lab in case LC "went nova"
  • Harry went through the effort of chipping bits off of every building and tree in chicago that was represented in LC for their thermatalogic link
  • Harry went through continuing effort to keep the model up to date to account for changes in Chicago.

Here is what LC has been used for in the series:
  • Tracking Molly's captors to the theater
  • Tracking "Grey Cloak"
  • Sending the Gruffs on a wild goose chase, via Mister. (thanks KevinSig)
  • An attempted tracking in the short story Love Hurts
  • And thats it...


Look there's a gun on the mantle  Cluebats pointing at LC, and resulting theories.

Who Fixed LC?
Bob pointed out at the end of PG that between Harry almost using LC near the beginning, and him actually using it near the end, somebody fixed a critical problem that would have caused it to go nova.  Here are some theories that have been put forth either attempting to explain whodunit, or to dig up clues that might help explain whodunit:

Other cluebats pointing at LC
Lots more to come.

Edit:  Thoughts based off of revelations in Ghost Story here:
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 09:24:06 PM by Serack »
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Offline Serack

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Re: The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2012, 01:36:19 PM »
YLC?

So why did Jim put so much effort into developing LC only to destroy it in the conflaguration of Harry's appartment without getting a proportionate bang out of it first?

Someone asked Jim if it was destroyed in the fire and got this response (post #330)
Quote from: 2010 Bitten by Books Q&A
#330 “Jim–someone else asked this as well, but I couldn’t see an answer: Little Chicago wasn’t mentioned in Turn Coat, and was barely mentioned in Changes… was it destroyed in the fire? Did the FBI notice it? It’s it gone for good?”
It was made of (mostly) pewter. The rest was plastic. Harry hadn’t taken steps to make it less destructible (which would have interfered with its function anyway–it was built to be sensitive, not tough). There was just no way it could have survived the fire. And no, the FBI didn’t confiscate it.
Changes is, in many ways, about loss. About encountering it and feeling its pain. That happens to all of us, sooner or later. There’s no avoiding it.
The real question is, how do you pick up the pieces and keep going, afterward.

#1 A weak attempt to to explain YLC
A sufficiently persistant theorizer could argue that Jim didn't say that it was destroyed, and that someone other than the FBI might have wisked it away...  and thus it is still in play.  Which might answer YLC, but that's kind of cheap, so what are alternate theories?

Edit: 6/25/13 I just had someone point out to me that Harry hadn't explicitly seen LC since Small Favor so it could have been wisked away books before Changes.

#2 Another attempt to explain YLC
The whole point of LC was to exemplify Harry's development in his stated magical strength.  Thaumaturgy. 

Quote from: Bob PG ch 6
"None of the evil geniuses I ever worked for could have handled something like this."  He paused.  "Though some of the psychotics could have, I guess."

A continuing theme in the series is that Harry is developing as a wizard.  Jim is doing an amazing job of showing this development in terms of accomplishments, hard earned skills, tough lessons learned, reexamination of foundational principals while teaching a padawan, earning allies and markers... you know, power-ups that enrich the story rather than just advancing to super saiyan level 9000.  The thing is, with the level of effort Jim put into this thaumatalogical "power up" I highly suspect he has something important that it is building up to rather than just a general goal of showing Harry is a more developed wizard.  Which leads to answer #2 part 2

#2 part 2 LC v2.0
If the point of LC was to show that Harry was building thaumaturgy muscle (specifically with theater spanning voodoo dolls) and the logical progression after the first one was destroyed is that he would build a 2nd that is more ambitious, what will v2.0 be like? 

I suspect that such a device would somehow be tied to Demonreach.  There is good reason to believe that Harry will end up dwelling in the hut by the lighthouse, and that will be where his new lab will be... So I posit that either LCv2.0 will be one of 2 things. 
  • A portable model of Demonreach that he can carry around and use as a portable link to the benefits of that sanctum.
  • A fixed model of something else (the world?) built in a new lab on Demonreach.  This diserves some extra bullets
    • Harry's new ability to go pretty much anywhere he wants via ways his mother found would certainly help facilitate gathering material for thaumaturgy links for such a model.
    • Such a model might have some interesting interactions with Harry's Demoreach Sanctum benefits.  Intelectus wherever the model goes?

#3 All this effort is turning it into a Red Herring (another tvtrops warning) (Thanks neurovore for pointing this out)

#4 The big firing of the Chekhov's gun happened off screen
So what if the hugely important YLC reason was something that happened off screen, like when it was fixed.  Maybe someone really needed LC so they somehow got down into Harry's basement and fixed it in order to use it for some hugely important reason that only LC could satisfy?

One of the reasons why I like this idea is because this means that the YLC answer happened in the same book that LC was introduced, and most of the work placing it on the mantle was done.  The flip side of this though is that for the gun to truly have been fired, it should be part of the story or what's the point.  So this resonates strongly for me with the theories that Time Traveling Harry (TTH) fixed LC.   But here's the twist this adds.  TTH's fix of LC was NOT to save his own past self's life, but rather to use it "himself" for some earth-shatteringly important reason that we didn't see in PG.  #4 is my own version of Cozarkian's theory layed out in reply#78

#4 also applies doubly to something Priscellie said in my LC fix timing thread.
Still, Jim is pretty good at keeping his books lean and relevant.  If something isn't necessary for a book, why put it there?  The Doylist argument of "He just figured this [time travel] out and wanted to show it off" doesn't hold up to me.  I don't think he'd contrive to include a "this is how time travel works" treatise in PG if time travel wasn't crucial to the events of that novel.

#5 (added 4/24/15)
Harry's experiences with Little Chicago in White Night (and to a lesser extent Proven Guilty) seem to mirror some of his experiences in Ghost Story.  Perhaps LC conditioned his soul somehow to prep him for being able to flit about in a naked soul in GS.  (more thoughts on this in this post)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 02:52:36 PM by Serack »
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Offline KevinSig

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Re: The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2012, 03:04:59 PM »
Quote
Here is what LC has been used for in the series:

Add sending the Gruffs on a wild goose chase, via Mister.
And it isn't so much a use, but you might want to add the tarp covering the set in Turn Coat, since it might be related (or not)
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 03:08:47 PM by KevinSig »

Offline Serack

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Re: The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2012, 03:08:49 PM »
Add sending the Gruffs on a wild goose chase, via Mister.

Thanks!  This is a big project, and many of these are much better because of input like this :)
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Offline KevinSig

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Re: The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2012, 03:25:17 PM »
I've never put forward a grand theory thread on this, but I have on occasion suggested an alternate take on time travel, which I'm happy to repeat.

Instead of traveling throught time directly, time travel is done in an alternate dimension.  Thus, I've put up the idea that Harry himself didn't fix LC, but an alternative version of himself.

Likewise, he'll eventually return the favor & mess with alternate Harry's timeline.

Avoiding paradox issues & thus kablooie.  (Edit: And I forget who mentioned it or where, but once when I stated this theory, it was mentioned that since the Earth is constantly moving through space, movement of some kind is required for moving through time.  So the idea of jumping dimensions, is just a bit more of the same.)


And I'm not certain, but I think Chekhov's gun might be playing a part in the idea.  The subjects of time travel & other dimensions, have both been subjects that Bob really didn't need to mention, considering the subject at hand.

In Proven Guilty, the subject of time travel did come up & then we get LC being mysteriously fixed.  I know I've posted a thread on the minor possibility that Ghost Story took place in an alternative dimsion.


I really was just spinning my wheels & only half heartedly thought any merit in the issue, but I could try to dig up the thread, if you consider it relevant.  (It might have to wait until later, since my lunch break is about done.)
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 03:30:35 PM by KevinSig »

Offline Serack

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Re: The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2012, 03:39:31 PM »
Actually, I'd really appreciate it if you, or someone else took the opportunity to write up at least one time travel theory in this topic (or another that can be dedicated to others responding and theorizing on time travel LC fixing theories.)  Which I would then link to in the OP under that bullet. 

Your's sounds excellent, and IMO a full writeup of it should include references to the WoJ's stating that there will be a mirror mirror book and that there is likely to be a book dedicated to time travel (your comments cause these 2 possiblities to mesh together for some interesting results in my mind right now...  things like Mirror Mirror Marcone fixed it!)  I've gotta watch the Mirror Mirror Buffy episode before that book is released.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 03:54:40 PM by Serack »
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Offline knnn

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Re: The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2012, 04:04:36 PM »
veeery Eeeeenteresting

Some initial thoughts:

1) I'd put down that Either Harry did use LC to find Thomas offscreen TC or didn't at all (tarp over the table)

2) You might want to put down the physical description (i.e. size/area of coverage) of LC.  Specifically, it does cover some of the water area around Chicago (though possibly not all the way to DR)

3) I do think that AA was the first to "officially" finger Mab on the forums.  That said, the most voracious pusher of the "Mab fixed LC" is Mrs. Duck.  You really aught to include one of her "defend my theory against all comers" threads (e.g. here) if only to showcase the Darkest Guardian of the MFLCT (Mab fixed Little Chicago Theory).  It also contains a poll where people voted for the various options.

Edit:  Sorry, didn't see that you already included a link to one of the Duck's threads.  Actually, it's probably better than mine.

4) If you want a post on "Time Travel Harry fixed LC", I gave it a shot here

 
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 04:10:43 PM by knnn »
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2012, 04:10:31 PM »
I could suspect that one possible answer is Jim wanting to keep us on our toes with respect to not everything Harry puts major effort into paying off, and not everything that gets a lot of build-up actually being a Chekhov's gun.
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Offline robertltux

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Re: The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2012, 04:52:54 PM »
and of course there is always the Harry Will Rebuild Little Chicago later thing.
Isn't the best reason for a 2.0 that you lost the 1.0 version??

With LC 1.0 Harry proved IT CAN BE DONE so he could get various Winter Minions to help gather the bits and chunks to do a New Version (he could in fact make an even BIGGER ONE) and add new features like a WayMaker and such. (Hmm what would happen if Harry FORZAREd the replica of a building with LC "online"??)
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2012, 05:03:44 PM »
and of course there is always the Harry Will Rebuild Little Chicago later thing.
Isn't the best reason for a 2.0 that you lost the 1.0 version?

If we're going in that direction, I could see a Little Earth by the end of the series.
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Offline Maz

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Re: The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2012, 05:18:31 PM »
Actually, rather than just extending it and making Little Earth...
What if you build it on Demonreach?
Attune all the pieces to the more remote places...
Would you gain Intellectus over a greater area then?

Offline Serack

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Re: The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2012, 05:27:57 PM »
I finish writing up my initial attempt at answering YLC to find that some of you have already posted some of my points :)

Thanks for pointing out the red herring possibility Neuro, I added it to the list of answers.

Maz:  I was thinking similar things about building a 2.0 on demonreach could mean intelectus but I forgot to spell it out.

robertltux:  It's funny that I was also calling a revamped LC v2.0.  I emphasized a different method of gathering items for links though.
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Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2012, 06:04:48 PM »
The whole point of LC was to exemplify Harry's development in his stated magical strength.  Thaumaturgy.

*twitch*

What he says his strength is varies even more than his stance on wanting a hat.
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Offline fuzzix

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Re: The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2012, 06:15:31 PM »
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that one motivation for creating LC was the sight of the Faerie LC shown to him by Mab and/or Lea at the stone table?  Doesn't that mean that 6 months out of the year, he will have limited access to a more powerful version?

Offline Serack

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Re: The YLC (Why Little Chicago) thread
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2012, 06:18:29 PM »
*twitch*

What he says his strength is varies even more than his stance on wanting a hat.

Lol, I origionally typed out "from book one" then went back and researched it... quite a while later I couldn't find a reference to his strength in thaumaturgy untill book 3.

Edit:
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that one motivation for creating LC was the sight of the Faerie LC shown to him by Mab and/or Lea at the stone table?  Doesn't that mean that 6 months out of the year, he will have limited access to a more powerful version?

Hmmmm... I'm really fuzzy on this, if anyone could elaborate.  I seem to remember the battle at the end of SK (and I think the spot Lea took him) being referred to as something like "Chicago above Chicago" or something like that...  But it was a 1:1 scale I think...
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 06:21:10 PM by Serack »
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