Author Topic: Hunger Reserves  (Read 4652 times)

Offline Mr. Death

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Hunger Reserves
« on: September 10, 2012, 05:37:01 PM »
So, I'm still trying to wrap my head around ways for Hunger stress and Feeding Dependency to make sense both in the rules, and with what we see in the canon of the story and the flavor text. This is, perhaps, veering into house-rules, but I think it's in the spirit of the system. It's in two parts.

I. Banking Hunger
This is, basically, having something with hunger stress do some prep work instead of hunger stress just being an after-the-fact, "I did this, now I have to eat" thing. In effect, this would look at your average vampire as a "baseline". Sort of like a human with an empty stomach, but who's been eating regularly. Using their powers makes them hungry, as normal, just like doing a day's worth of yard work would make you hungry.

But, prudent vampires can top up their reserves by maneuvering with their feeding skills beforehand, with each maneuver being taggable later on--either to boost a roll in combat, justified by tapping into those extra reserves, or to boost the discipline roll at the end of the conflict, justified by the conflict depleting the extra reserves, but not pushing you into hunger stress.

This would explain, for example, the fight with Lord Raith in Blood Rites--he can't feed, but he's moving quickly and healing rapidly all during the fight, probably using all the maneuvers he'd built up before he got neutered, but which he didn't want to use except as a last resort.

II. Trading in Hunger Stress for Bonuses
This one is more to deal with things like a vampire going all out, beyond their normal limits, during a fight, then being drained after (see Thomas vs. the Black Court vamps in Blood Rites). Essentially, this would be the vampire boosting some roll or another by trading in a hunger consequence--+2 for Mild, +4 for Moderate, +6 for Severe--during combat, which takes effect at the end of the conflict.

This, I think, works more in line with how we've seen White Court vampires work in the series, and allows the vampire more options in a fight. At the same time, it both makes the hunger track useful, and makes it more likely to actually cause a hindrance.

I was considering the idea of trading hunger stress for the bonuses, but that seems a little too powerful.

So, thoughts?
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Offline Centarion

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Re: Hunger Reserves
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2012, 08:03:42 PM »
I agree with both of these concepts, both should be something you can do.

I think the Banking Hunger method you proposed is good. And also something that you can probably already do under the rules. If you maneuver/declare that you fed before the fight/during the fight, then you have a Well Fed aspect, and you could of course tag it to boost your Feeding Failure defense roll. 

Vampires going all out is also something that should be an option. I think this is best modeled with the temporary powers rules. When a vampire goes all out, they take on a higher level of their Strength/Speed/Toughness/Recovery power (whichever is applicable) temporarily by drawing deeply from their reserves. Then at the end of the scene they face a attack equal to the total refresh of powers they used. This would of course have to cost something (like normal temporary powers), but I think it would be fair to not require the expenditure of a full fate point per refresh of temporary power, since you are paying something by increasing the power of the hunger attack you are going to face later. I am just not sure how much this something is worth. Maybe half a fate point per refresh (so 1 fate point per level per power on Strength/Speed/Toughness/Recovery)? I don't know. It does give you a way to "spend" hunger stress and consequences when you eat that huge attack.

My main problem with spending consequences (and especially stress) to boost a roll is that it feels a bit too much like Sacred Guardian (especially with stress). I know it is somewhat mitigated by the fact that the stress does not clear as normal, but i still think it is too strong. When you only allow consequences it is somewhat better, but still hurt by the fact that you can then go kill a person and clear all your hunger consequences. That may be a somewhat steep cost in some games, but probably less of a cost in others. I just think the potential for a +12 to a roll, and then going and killing something is a bit strong or at least abuseable (if not always strong).

I also feel the problems with Feeding Dependency and the Feeding Powers (Blood Drinker, Emotional Vampire) go further than just not modeling the cases you bring up. I think feeding dependency is extremely unclear in many other ways, and even when you sort through that does not do what I want it to.

I looked over several interpretations/re-writes when I made a White Court character for a game, and here is what I came up with (a lot of credit goes to Becq and Sancta from whom most of these ideas are adapted/copied). I would love feed back on this re-write/houserule of the power (I know Sancta has one that is very general, but I like this more for the types of feeding dependency we see in YS, namely blood and life force via emotions).

Feeding Dependency [+Varies]
Hunger checks are made as in the rules as written (discipline vs refresh used), except that even on a success, a minimum 1-stress hit is inflicted.  Stress taken can be reduced as normal by opting to take hunger consequences; the player can also buy down the stress by disabling powers (-1 stress per refresh worth of powers 'lost').  Marking off boxes on the hunger stress track has no additional effect, though the hunger stress track is not automatically cleared as normal at the end of scenes, nor does winning the hunger check clear the stress.  Stress that overflows the stress track causes the character to be taken out.

You can feed in order to offset hunger effects.  Any time a consequence is inflicted by feeding, any one lesser hunger consequence or any one hunger stress box is cleared.  For example, feeding that inflicts a severe consequence allows a mild or moderate hunger consequence, or any one hunger stress box to be cleared.  Powers can be recovered in place of a consequence (mild consequence = 2 refresh, moderate = 4 refresh, etc).  (If you are allowing partial downgrades, then powers can be partially recovered, too.)

You can also opt out of a scene to feed (you may also feed when there is enough downtime, if you have the night off you may go clubbing and feed as described here, if you have a week off assume you had the opportunity to feed gradually and clear all your problems, subject to GM approval). Describe an appropriate mini-scene and roll an appropriate skill against a difficulty determined by the GM.  For example, A WCV that opts out of a scene in order to feed at a rave might test with Presence or Deceit against a mediocre difficulty, whereas a RCV who finds his reserves depleted in the middle of a wilderness might have a much harder time of it.  If this check is successful, then shifts can be used to recover powers (one refresh per shift) and/or clear hunger consequences (shift for shift) and/or clear stress boxes (any one box per shift).

Killing while feeding has the same benefit as in RAW: you can immediately regain all of your lost abilities (hunger stress and consequences as well as loss of powers). Note that killing could trigger investigation by police, potentially leading to a conflict (or social consequence involving reputation for being a prime suspect).

Further, since this version adds a more significant gameplay challenge (by requiring “on screen feeding” every so often, or sitting out every few scenes, which is no fun) the rebate should likely be increased. This does depend entirely on how the campaign will be run. If the character is a full White Court Vampire, with no problem with killing, and never faces the consequences of this killing, then [+1] is fine no matter how many powers he puts on it. However, if the character won't kill, can't kill (ie. is a Virgin), or will face severe repercussions from killing (at least some of the time), it may be worth up to [+1] per 2-3 refresh attached. 

I suggest [+1] for up to 5 refresh of attached powers, this bonus increases to [+2] at 6 refresh and [+3] at 10 refresh etc.


What do people think?

EDIT: Fixed a particularly egregious spelling error.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 11:41:11 PM by Centarion »

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Hunger Reserves
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2012, 08:33:54 PM »
Vampires going all out is also something that should be an option. I think this is best modeled with the temporary powers rules. When a vampire goes all out, they take on a higher level of their Strength/Speed/Toughness/Recovery power (whichever is applicable) temporarily by drawing deeply from their reserves. Then at the end of the scene they face a attack equal to the total refresh of powers they used. This would of course have to cost something (like normal temporary powers), but I think it would be fair to not require the expenditure of a full fate point per refresh of temporary power, since you are paying something by increasing the power of the hunger attack you are going to face later. I am just not sure how much this something is worth. Maybe half a fate point per refresh (so 1 fate point per level per power on Strength/Speed/Toughness/Recovery)? I don't know. It does give you a way to "spend" hunger stress and consequences when you eat that huge attack.
This is kinda iffy to me, partly because it's not "even" I guess. Boosting Strength by one level would be a +2 to successful attacks (and doesn't help with the roll), but boosting Speed by one level is only +1 to defense, for instance. I agree that if you do go the temporary powers route, you shouldn't have to spend the fate points because then you're taking it coming and going.

Quote
My main problem with spending consequences (and especially stress) to boost a roll is that it feels a bit to much like Sacred Guardian (especially with stress). I know it is somewhat mitigated by the fact that the stress does not clear as normal, but i still think it is too strong. When you only allow consequences it is somewhat better, but still hurt by the fact that you can then go kill a person and clear all your hunger consequences. That may be a somewhat steep cost in some games, but probably less of a cost in others. I just think the potential for a +12 to a roll, and then going and killing something is a bit strong or at least abuseable (of not always strong).
Well, look at it this way--that +12 to one roll means that until you do feed, so much as a light breeze is going to either take you out or force an Extreme consequence. So while there's potential for massive gain, it's really easy for it to bite you in the as--especially if your enemies notice your Herculean feat and decide to gang up on you before you do it again.

I suppose you could do it both ways, though--if you really need a quick, huge boost to one roll right now, take the consequence to boost it, but if you're in for a long fight and you expect to be throwing a lot of punches, boosting to Supernatural Strength instead of Inhuman is the better bet.

(Not answering the rest of it because I'm not interested in wholesale alternate powers, just in finding better ways to work within the rules as written and intended).
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 09:03:12 PM by Mr. Death »
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Offline Centarion

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Re: Hunger Reserves
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2012, 09:22:24 PM »
Quote
This is kinda iffy to me, partly because it's not "even" I guess. Boosting Strength by one level would be a +2 to successful attacks (and doesn't help with the roll), but boosting Speed by one level is only +1 to defense, for instance. I agree that if you do go the temporary powers route, you shouldn't have to spend the fate points because then you're taking it coming and going.

This is true. But in my recollection of the novels, when we see Thomas or another WCV go all out, it isn't just one roll (maybe sometimes it is, but sometimes it is for whole scenes at a time). When Thomas's eyes get even more shiny, and he gets even more pale he is described as moving faster then before, or recovering from more than he could before (above what he could when he was using his powers normally). I think that while the bonuses are not the same, they are fairly even in power level (as interpreted by how building stunts work), +2 to damage is worth 1 refresh, so is +1 to a combat skill. Of course there are all the other benefits of the skills thrown in, but those powers are some of the more balanced IMO.

I think your method works also, it certainly has its dangers and downsides and mechanically it looks "fair." I just think any time you give players the option to strait boost their roll by a huge number you are asking for trouble. I can see the circumstance where an WCV and his party has taken out all of the minions and is fighting the Boss. The WCV says he is going "all in" and rolls weapon (or whatever) at Great+12 with his strength power  and a weapon, this is going to be like 13-15 stress, and likely just force a take out (maybe not, depends on what the boss is, but you get the point). Then his take out narration could just be knock him unconscious, tie him up, and feed on him to death, clearing all consequences. This is of course the "magical Christmas land" scenario, but you get the point.

I also think that while temporary powers is clearly allowed in the book, taking consequences to boost rolls is not. So if you want to stay as true to the book as possible there is that consideration. I personally feel that whatever your group agrees is best is the way to go, and my groups like to house rule things significantly when they do not make sense, but I know many groups try to stay as authentic as possible.

Quick question. If you do go the temporary powers route what do you think an appropriate cost is? We agree it should not be the full cost in fate points, because as you said you would be taking it coming and going. On the other hand, the way Feeding Dependency works in the RAW (and pretty much in my re-writer as well), there would be functionally no difference between spending the 24 refresh on mythic everything and spending 8 refresh on inhuman everything and beefing it up to mythic every time you needed to. Both methods would have the same "cost" of a X shift hunger attack based on what you used, but the first clearly costs 16 more refresh. 

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Hunger Reserves
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2012, 10:29:23 PM »
I also think that while temporary powers is clearly allowed in the book, taking consequences to boost rolls is not. So if you want to stay as true to the book as possible there is that consideration. I personally feel that whatever your group agrees is best is the way to go, and my groups like to house rule things significantly when they do not make sense, but I know many groups try to stay as authentic as possible.
It's true that it's not in the book, but I recall seeing a blog post by one of the writers (either of Dresden, or of the FATE system in general) musing on the subject of using regular consequences proactively, similarly to using a mental consequence to cast more than the usual four spells per combat.

Quote
Quick question. If you do go the temporary powers route what do you think an appropriate cost is? We agree it should not be the full cost in fate points, because as you said you would be taking it coming and going. On the other hand, the way Feeding Dependency works in the RAW (and pretty much in my re-writer as well), there would be functionally no difference between spending the 24 refresh on mythic everything and spending 8 refresh on inhuman everything and beefing it up to mythic every time you needed to. Both methods would have the same "cost" of a X shift hunger attack based on what you used, but the first clearly costs 16 more refresh.
It's hard to say. Making them cost the full amount seems overly harsh, so I'd say probably half price?

Or, alternatively, combine the ideas. Going from Inhuman to Supernatural is a mild hunger consequence. Boosting to Mythic, or boosting two of them one level each, is a moderate consequence, etc. It covers the cost, and provides a hard limit to how much of a boost you can give yourself.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Hunger Reserves
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2012, 10:34:07 PM »
Centarion said what I was going to say.

I like his Feeding Dependency rewrite too.

I can't find the link right now, but devonapple once proposed a pretty good house rule where you could turn a failed roll into a successful one by taking a consequence with a value bigger than the margin of failure.

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Hunger Reserves
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2012, 10:46:38 PM »
I can't find the link right now, but devonapple once proposed a pretty good house rule where you could turn a failed roll into a successful one by taking a consequence with a value bigger than the margin of failure.
One of Fred's blog posts was where I first saw the proposal.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Hunger Reserves
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2012, 10:49:54 PM »
Huh, cool. I didn't know the idea had "official" status.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Hunger Reserves
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2012, 11:01:31 PM »
One of Fred's blog posts was where I first saw the proposal.
Yeah, that's the blog post I was thinking of. Thanks.
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Offline Centarion

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Re: Hunger Reserves
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2012, 11:57:00 PM »
Quote
I like his Feeding Dependency rewrite too.

Thanks, coming from someone with your experience with this sort of thing I will take that as high praise indeed.

I also really like the concept of the blog post. Sounds fun. I especially like it in concert with the idea of taking hunger consequences to upgrade powers, seems like a reasonable cost that is in some cases better and some cases worse than just doing it with fate points (I think 1 fate point per upgrade would be reasonable as well). It is especially good if you don't take them till after the scene, which is what I would assume, though if you take more consequences during the scene and rack up a big hunger attack you could be in a lot of trouble (I assume if the consequence isn't available you just add its value to the attack). 

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Hunger Reserves
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2012, 12:48:14 AM »
I also really like the concept of the blog post. Sounds fun. I especially like it in concert with the idea of taking hunger consequences to upgrade powers, seems like a reasonable cost that is in some cases better and some cases worse than just doing it with fate points (I think 1 fate point per upgrade would be reasonable as well). It is especially good if you don't take them till after the scene, which is what I would assume, though if you take more consequences during the scene and rack up a big hunger attack you could be in a lot of trouble (I assume if the consequence isn't available you just add its value to the attack). 

Temporary Powers have their own reasonably well defined rules in YS.  Assuming by 'upgrade' you're referencing a jump from, say, Inhuman [X] to Supernatural [X], the cost would be 2 FPs.
Additionally, I would assume that you take the consequence at the time that you spend the shifts it provides.
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Offline Centarion

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Re: Hunger Reserves
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2012, 01:08:53 AM »
I know the rules in YS for temporary powers. The question I was asking is more along the lines of what if anything is the fact that you are going to take a larger hunger attack worth?

I assume if you upgrade from Inhuman Strength to Supernatural Strength, and also use Speed and Toughness in the fight you would take an 8 shift hunger attack (4 for strength, 2 for the others). So as Mr. Death said, you would be paying twice, once to upgrade the power, and then again when you eat a hunger attack. I am well aware that if the initial upgrade costs nothing that having inhuman everything and upgrading when needed is just as good as having mythic everything and using only what is needed (at 1/3 the price). But it still does not feel right that the initial upgrade would be full price (or maybe it is, just because the justification comes so easily in this case, at the cost of more hunger).

The reason I assume the consequence applies later (at the time of the applicable hunger attack) is that when Thomas draws deeply upon his reserves (which is what I, at least, am trying to model here) he kicks serious butt for the scene, but is really hurting afterwords. It just feels like the price is delayed. This may not be balanced, but it does not seem like too OP or too much of a hassle to track. And if you do use the consequence during the scene (before you pay with it) then you are going to be paying for the temporary upgrade by loosing an equal refresh worth of powers, which I think is at least as bad if not much worse than the consequence.

If you are just using consequences to normally boost a roll of course you take it when you spend the shifts, and I know it is awkward to have different rules for different uses, but this one just seemed so flavorfully correct.

Another question, if you pay for extra powers by taking a hunger consequence of appropriate value, would you still take the hunger attack for the upgrade at the end (in the above example a 4 instead of a 2)? I would say you clearly do with fate points (why again, I think you should get some discount), but it is less clear if you are already going to be taking a hunger consequence for it.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Hunger Reserves
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2012, 03:46:34 AM »
I know the rules in YS for temporary powers. The question I was asking is more along the lines of what if anything is the fact that you are going to take a larger hunger attack worth?

...

Another question, if you pay for extra powers by taking a hunger consequence of appropriate value, would you still take the hunger attack for the upgrade at the end (in the above example a 4 instead of a 2)? I would say you clearly do with fate points (why again, I think you should get some discount), but it is less clear if you are already going to be taking a hunger consequence for it.

A bigger hunger attack is certainly worth something, but it's not worth enough that I'd be comfortable with reducing the FP cost.

I think mechanics for hunger overclocking would be best handled with a new Power or a Feeding Dependency rewrite.

As for the latter question, it's up to the GM or the guy writing the new Power. We're in house rules territory here anyway.

Offline Centarion

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Re: Hunger Reserves
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2012, 01:53:19 PM »
We are indeed in house rule territory.

Say I wanted to make a -1 or minus 0 addon to feeding dependency that allows you to take a hunger consequence after the scene or pay some (reduced?) amount of fate points now, to supercharge your powers. What limmitations would this need? Would it be fair?

I'll take a stab at it when I am not on my phone.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Hunger Reserves
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2012, 10:16:51 PM »
If it's not part of Feeding Dependency and has no drawbacks, it should cost something. Choosing not to take an upgrade should always be viable.

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

PS: Fred writes a bit about possible problems with spending consequences in the comments section of his post. If you haven't read his comment already, you should.