Rewriting Possession, Domination, and Demonic Co-Pilot

[Sanctaphrax]

I mentioned a while back that I was planning a project to give this game a set of solid rules for possession.

As it turns out, that requires revising Demonic Co-Pilot and Domination.

So here goes.

The issues with Demonic Co-Pilot are well-known.

I plan to fix them by having the demon make only one attack per scene, with a strength that depends on the number of times you called upon it for a +1 bonus. If you get taken out, it inflicts a debt compel or messes with your Aspects.

Domination isn't all that badly written, but it could use some more definition. How long does it take to dominate someone? What does dominating someone do? And what, if anything, stops a character with Mediocre Discipline from wearing down one with Epic Discipline over time?

This rewrite is supposed to make all that clear. Also I'm planning to make Master Dominator better and more versatile, because it's pretty lame as is.

Possession doesn't really have any rules, as it stands. The main point of this project is to change that.

This is quite a big job, because there are like five different types of possession to cover. Each needs its own Power.

First, there's possessing scenery in order to affect physical things. The Power for this will closely resemble KOFFEYKID'S Possess Corpse Power.

Second, there's possessing willing allies and giving them a boost, Shaman King style. The Power for this will resemble the Mind Meld Power that's on the master list.

Third, there's possessing willing allies and using their body as your own. Harry does this a couple of times. The Power for this will be similar to the upgrade for my Spirit Form rewrite.

Fourth, there's possessing unwilling targets and becoming a corrupting influence in the back of their minds. The Power for this will involve winning a mental conflict in order to become an Aspect on the target. Once you're an Aspect, you can make a mental attack each scene to corrupt them as they make a mental attack to eject you. With an upgrade, you can do the Demonic Co-Pilot thing.

Fifth, there's possessing unwilling targets and taking over. Have a mental conflict, if you win you get an effect similar to the third type of possession. The target can attempt to free itself every once in a while, and whenever you use its body to do something diametrically opposed to its nature.

I'm still not totally sure how to treat animals. Are they scenery or characters?

Other than that, I think the plan's pretty good. If it's somehow flawed or incomplete, this is a good time to point that out.

Watch this thread, the Powers will be going up as I finish them. All seven of them.

[Sanctaphrax]

SPIRITUAL CO-PILOT [-1]
Description: A spirit dwells inside you, granting you power in exchange for control over you. Draw upon it too heavily, and you may become its puppet.
Musts: You must have an Aspect reflecting your spiritual partner. If you act against your Co-Pilot's agenda, a Compel may deny you access to this Power.
Skills Affected: Discipline, others.
Effects:
Spiritual Power. Whenever you use a skill, you may add one to it.
The Struggle For Control. At the end of any scene in which you use the Spiritual Power trapping, you suffer a mental attack. The accuracy of this mental attack is equal to your skill cap plus the number of times you used Spiritual Power in that scene, and it has no weapon rating. Stress and consequences taken from this attack do not begin to heal until you go a full session without using Spiritual Power. If this attack takes you out, you receive a Compel as though you had taken a point of Sponsor Debt. Alternately, the GM may choose to alter one of your permanent Aspects.

[Praxidicae]

Looks pretty good, couple of points though.

From reading the synopsis it looks like Spiritual Power is adding 1 to the ranking of the skill rather than 1 to the result of the roll, is this intentional? (not sure this would really make a difference - but it seems to be what it implies).

I'd add in something about specifying whether the Spiritual Power effect is invoked before or after the roll is made (it would be much more effective if applied after the roll, but thematically one would likely call upon the powers of your possessing spirit prior to attempting an action).

The last worry I have is the  "stress and consequences taken from this attack do not begin to heal until you go a full session without using Spiritual Power" bit. Thematically I can see this working nicely, but separating out 'Spiritual Power' stress and consequences and those applied normally adds additional book-keeping to the power that is probably unnecessary.
How about if consequences are deducted as normal but the character has a additional stress track, "Spiritual Stress" where the relevant stress is applied, and which operates in a similar way to hunger stress?

[InFerrumVeritas]

Animals will sometimes be scenery, sometimes be characters.  Mister is largely scenery (blasphemous, I know, but he does little to affect the plot).  Mouse, however, is most definitely a character.  This is more of a narrative distinction than anything else, but an important one.  Are you fighting an animal?  Then it's a character.  Is there just an animal around?  Then it's scenery.

For spiritual power: I'd go with "Stress and consequences do not heal if Spiritual power is used during the recovery period."  So a mild will still take a scene to shake off, but only if in that next scene you're not asking for more help.  A moderate'll take a session anyway.  A severe more so (so it's likely to stick around, which'll mean a character will be more likely to be taken out than take a severe consequence).  This makes greater consequences a greater risk.

EDIT: What I should say in the first bit is if the animal was relevant to the story BEFORE possessed.  One would hope it would be relevant afterwards.

[admiralducksauce]

For spiritual power: I'd go with "Stress and consequences do not heal if Spiritual power is used during the recovery period."

I like this tweak as well.

[Locnil]

Spiritual Co-Pilot seems rather weak - I can't see anyone who would ever take it. Even if they only used it once, they would need a lucky roll or a fate point expenditure - failing that, they have to take a point of debt. And they need Discipline at the apex of the pyramid or the problem gets worse. So why won't people just spend the FP to boost what they want to instead?

[ways and means]

The fact that it is level cap plus uses makes it pretty weak especially compared to the (+0) combo of feeding dependency and feeding power which has its rolls starting at zero and has a bunch of similar if not more powerful advantages all for one less refresh. The biggest flaw of the power is that it creates two tiers of mental stress that exist and doesn't give clear guidelines on how they interact.

[Sanctaphrax]

Looks pretty good, couple of points though.

From reading the synopsis it looks like Spiritual Power is adding 1 to the ranking of the skill rather than 1 to the result of the roll, is this intentional? (not sure this would really make a difference - but it seems to be what it implies).

I'd add in something about specifying whether the Spiritual Power effect is invoked before or after the roll is made (it would be much more effective if applied after the roll, but thematically one would likely call upon the powers of your possessing spirit prior to attempting an action).

The last worry I have is the  "stress and consequences taken from this attack do not begin to heal until you go a full session without using Spiritual Power" bit. Thematically I can see this working nicely, but separating out 'Spiritual Power' stress and consequences and those applied normally adds additional book-keeping to the power that is probably unnecessary.
How about if consequences are deducted as normal but the character has a additional stress track, "Spiritual Stress" where the relevant stress is applied, and which operates in a similar way to hunger stress?

Good points.

I considered a separate stress track, settled on this because I figured it'd be easier. But I suppose I could change that.

The bonus is supposed to be applied before rolling. I'll make that clear.

The bonus is not supposed to persist, but it is supposed to work on non-rolled things like initiative.

Animals will sometimes be scenery, sometimes be characters.  Mister is largely scenery (blasphemous, I know, but he does little to affect the plot).  Mouse, however, is most definitely a character.  This is more of a narrative distinction than anything else, but an important one.  Are you fighting an animal?  Then it's a character.  Is there just an animal around?  Then it's scenery.

For spiritual power: I'd go with "Stress and consequences do not heal if Spiritual power is used during the recovery period."  So a mild will still take a scene to shake off, but only if in that next scene you're not asking for more help.  A moderate'll take a session anyway.  A severe more so (so it's likely to stick around, which'll mean a character will be more likely to be taken out than take a severe consequence).  This makes greater consequences a greater risk.

EDIT: What I should say in the first bit is if the animal was relevant to the story BEFORE possessed.  One would hope it would be relevant afterwards.

That's a good summary of what makes animals problematic here.

The recovery tweak won't work, unfortunately, because it doesn't affect stress. In order for the once/scene attack model to work, stress has to last.

Spiritual Co-Pilot seems rather weak - I can't see anyone who would ever take it. Even if they only used it once, they would need a lucky roll or a fate point expenditure - failing that, they have to take a point of debt. And they need Discipline at the apex of the pyramid or the problem gets worse. So why won't people just spend the FP to boost what they want to instead?

If they use it once, they'll just take stress. Which is pretty trivial even with the healing restriction.

With peaked Discipline and 4 mental boxes, using this three times/scene isn't terribly risky.

The fact that it is level cap plus uses makes it pretty weak especially compared to the (+0) combo of feeding dependency and feeding power which has its rolls starting at zero and has a bunch of similar if not more powerful advantages all for one less refresh. The biggest flaw of the power is that it creates two tiers of mental stress that exist and doesn't give clear guidelines on how they interact.

Feeding Dependency has issues, and there are no special interactions between this stress and normal stress. Also this gives much broader bonuses than Blood Drinker and company.

That being said, I think I probably aimed a bit too low power-wise with this. I'll post a stronger version later tonight.

[THE_ANGRY_GAMER]

 I quite like the Demonhost template we worked out a while back, although the restrictions on that are a good deal more soft, and it's got quite a high power-level.

Personally, I'd do this on a sponsor/debt system, allowing you to invoke an aspect on anything in exchange for a debt point.

[Sanctaphrax]

I like sponsor mechanics too, but I needed to go beyond them for this. You see, this is basically one set of possession mechanics the perspective of the victim. Sponsor debt alone wouldn't be enough.

Enough talk, new version:

SPIRITUAL CO-PILOT [-1]
Description: A spirit dwells inside you, granting you power in exchange for control over you. Draw upon it too heavily, and you may become its puppet.
Musts: You must have an Aspect reflecting your spiritual partner. If you act against your Co-Pilot's agenda, a Compel may deny you access to this Power.
Note: This Power is usually taken alongside the Sponsor Power. It is not compatible with Immunity to the stress that it inflicts.
Skills Affected: Discipline, others.
Effects:
Spiritual Power. Whenever you use a skill, you may choose to treat it as though it were one point higher. Do this before rolling.
The Struggle For Control. You have an additional stress track, called the Control track. The length of this track is determined by your Conviction. Stress and consequences taken on this track do not begin to heal until you go a full session without using Spiritual Power.
The Price Of Power. At the end of any scene in which you use the Spiritual Power trapping, you suffer a control attack. The accuracy of this control attack is twice the number of times you used Spiritual Power in that scene, and has no weapon rating. Defend with your Discipline skill. If this attack takes you out, you receive a Compel as though you had taken a point of Sponsor Debt. Alternately, the GM may choose to alter one of your permanent Aspects.

I'm tempted to make extra mental stress boxes and mental armour apply to the control track. Good idea or bad idea?

PS: Thanks a lot everyone. I think that this is much better than the first version, though I'm still not quite sold on the attack scaling.

[Tedronai]

WHY is sponsor debt alone insufficient to this task?

Why are the two recommended results of a take-out so vastly divergent in magnitude? (changing a permanent aspect is well beyond the usual scope of a compel)

[Sanctaphrax]

Now, for Domination. Or as I now call it, Enthrallment. Why this seemingly random name-changing, you ask?

Because it makes it easier to tell when somebody is using my version. If I called it Domination, then people would have to specify (not the canon version) whenever they wrote it on a character sheet.

For a similar reason, I try to make upgrade names easy to add to the original Power name. You should be able to make clear exactly what upgrades you have just by saying what your Power is called.

Wow, I'm rambling a lot in this thread. Enough of that. Here goes:

ENTHRALLMENT [-2]
Description: You can control minds. It's not quick or easy, but it's effective.
Skills Affected: Discipline.
Effects:
Domination. You may engage a willing or helpless target in a mental conflict. Discipline is used to attack and to defend. You automatically win initiative. If you are taken out, the conflict ends and you may not resume it for twenty four hours. Each exchange in this conflict takes roughly half an hour by default. You can rush this, but you'll suffer a penalty to all rolls in the rushed exchange. This penalty is -1 for a five minute exchange, -2 for a one minute one, and -3 for a combat-time exchange.
Enthrallment. If you take your target out, you may turn them into a rough thrall or into a Renfield. A rough thrall is identical to the character it once was, except that it now obeys you robotically and takes no initiative. Change its High Concept to reflect that. A rough thrall can recover given roughly a month without re-enthrallment, the help of a wizard or therapist, or a Compel against you on one of its aspects triggered by an attempt to force it to do something diametrically opposed to its nature. A Renfield is similar to a rough thrall, but retains none of its previous memories or identity. Renfields are incurable.
Superior Enthrallment [-1]. Your Enthrallment attacks inflict two additional stress. In addition, you may transform defeated targets into fine thralls. A fine thrall is identical to the character it once was, except it now seeks the goals you assign for it in place of its own. Change its High Concept to reflect that. You may also transform thralls into supernatural beings. Select four Refresh of Powers and stunts. Whenever you enthrall a character, you may grant them those abilities. Change their Aspects to reflect their new nature, as normal.

Words words words!

But I don't think it's that bad. It does more or less what I want.

Am I missing anything? Is this too strong, too weak, just dumb?

[Sanctaphrax]

WHY is sponsor debt alone insufficient to this task?

Why are the two recommended results of a take-out so vastly divergent in magnitude? (changing a permanent aspect is well beyond the usual scope of a compel)

1. Because sponsor debt doesn't really represent a struggle all that well. There can be one IC, but it's all fake to the player.

It might make more sense when I finish type four possession.

2. Is it? I actually thought changing an Aspect was the soft option. After all, it can just be changed back at a milestone with a bit of narrated willpower.

[Locnil]

People can get quite touchy about their Aspects. Also, they may have been planning to do something else with their minor milestone. That said, for the most part I agree with your analysis.

I like Superior Enthrallment, if only because it gives people with Ritual Psychomancy reason to get Enthrallment anyway. Even if they would still be better off upgrading Ritual.

However, shouldn't you put some restrictions on what kind of powers and stunts they could grant? I don't see why being enthralled should make someone suddenly have more expensive stuff and be able to teleport into the Nevernever.

Spiritual Power - Is there any reason you chose to word it this way, instead of just saying a +1 to any roll?

If I'm reading it right, a mild control consequence requires two scenes of no power usage to heal - one to start recovery, the other to actually heal it. Am I reading it right?

How about an option to go nova? Instead of only a series of +1 boosts, you can boost it as much as you want, perhaps with a cap of Lore or Conviction so it doesn't get abused. Each point of bonus you get, in total, will be doubled and added to the accuracy of the control attack.

SCP seems better now, if still a a tad on the weak side - though from what I've seen, I have different ideas about the value of a Refresh than you. It's also possible I'm still influenced by the earlier write-up.

[Praxidicae]

People can get quite touchy about their Aspects. Also, they may have been planning to do something else with their minor milestone.

Maybe instead of replacing an aspect, the taken out consequence could add an additional sticky aspect relating to the spirit's attempts to gain control, one that persists until the next milestone?

ENTHRALLMENT [-2]
Description: You can control minds. It's not quick or easy, but it's effective.
Skills Affected: Discipline.
Effects:
Domination. You may engage a willing or helpless target in a mental conflict. Discipline is used to attack and to defend. You automatically win initiative. If you are taken out, the conflict ends and you may not resume it for twenty four hours. Each exchange in this conflict takes roughly half an hour by default. You can rush this, but you'll suffer a penalty to all rolls in the rushed exchange. This penalty is -1 for a five minute exchange, -2 for a one minute one, and -3 for a combat-time exchange.
Enthrallment. If you take your target out, you may turn them into a rough thrall or into a Renfield. A rough thrall is identical to the character it once was, except that it now obeys you robotically and takes no initiative. Change its High Concept to reflect that. A rough thrall can recover given roughly a month without re-enthrallment, the help of a wizard or therapist, or a Compel against you on one of its aspects triggered by an attempt to force it to do something diametrically opposed to its nature. A Renfield is similar to a rough thrall, but retains none of its previous memories or identity. Renfields are incurable.
Superior Enthrallment [-1]. Your Enthrallment attacks inflict two additional stress. In addition, you may transform defeated targets into fine thralls. A fine thrall is identical to the character it once was, except it now seeks the goals you assign for it in place of its own. Change its High Concept to reflect that. You may also transform thralls into supernatural beings. Select four Refresh of Powers and stunts. Whenever you enthrall a character, you may grant them those abilities. Change their Aspects to reflect their new nature, as normal.

For rough thralls how would becoming one effect a supernaturally gifted being? Would a person with enthrallment be able to dominate a powerful magic user, turn them into a Rough Thrall and have them use their magic (or *shudder* have them use up their Death Curse), or would these abilities become unavailable whilst they are enthralled (you mention that Renfields lose their previous memories and abilities - which seems to imply that Rough Thralls retain them).

For that matter can this power be used to dominate an entirely non-human entity? Looking at things as they currently stand, with a little luck, a character specced out for this power could turn Maeve or Mavra into a Rough Thrall or Renfield relatively easily, something that just doesn't sit well with me. (In fact - looking at OW, Maeve would probably be easier to enthrall than Mavra...which seems a little odd)

The potential blowback from suborning the power of the Winter Lady could be very amusing and might be considered adequate motivation not to do this.