Author Topic: Why is the true love catch +0?  (Read 5352 times)

Offline ways and means

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Re: Why is the true love catch +0?
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2012, 07:28:48 PM »
Raw rules state +1 for rare knowledge of catch +2 for wide knowledge of catch, +1 for rare marital, + 2 for easily available material. Now you can dicker on what counts as rare, extremely rare and common but that doesn't change the fact that following those guidelines does not lead to a 0 catch for WCV unless you are willing to state only 1 or 2 people know about the WC catch and that only 1 or 2 people have access to it.
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Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Why is the true love catch +0?
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2012, 07:43:22 PM »
Is either a stretch?  It's been a while but I thought Thomas had to explain it to Harry.  Not sure many outside the WCV community would know...else they'd be as rare as the Black Court.
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Offline Tarion

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Re: Why is the true love catch +0?
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2012, 09:39:59 PM »
I think you can make an argument that it really is that rare.

Firstly, remember that not many people have access to true love.  Lots of people could have access to it, but it's not something you can find on demand.  Especially since looking for it probably makes it even harder to find (Since you're looking for it for profit, rather than out of love).

Secondly, weaponising it is bloody difficult.  Remember that in a person it only works on vampires who choose to feed on them (Or whose vampire side is in control).  You can be as truly loved as you want, but unless you have a token of that love, there's nothing you can do to force the catch on a vampire.  Slap Lara all you want, she's not going to blister. 

To actually weaponise it, you're going to need your true love to give you a weapon (or something you can improvise as a weapon) as a token of that love.  Which, again, probably won't work if they're doing it so in order to trigger the catch - It probably needs to be given out of love, not with deliberately weaponising it as the goal.  Otherwise it wouldn't be a "token of love".  Even then, just being given something by the one you love isn't enough, or Whites would blister on contact with Harry's coat, which actually Thomas wears.   

Thirdly, I seriously doubt it's well known outside of the WCV community (and I think it's reasonable to discount them for the purpose of calculating the catch's level of information - The fact that the vast, vast majority of people with knowledge to use the catch aren't capable of doing so really limits it's usefulness.  Thomas is the only White seen to show love, and he's the black sheep of the family).  Remember, Harry only finds out from Thomas, and I can't think of a single mention from the Council of that as their weakness.  Harry never says "Don't worry, I'm protected" to Luccio, or Ebeneezer, when they're worried about Thomas preying on him.  The WCV are masters of controlling information.  It's basically their business (Just ask Stoker and the Blacks). 

Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Why is the true love catch +0?
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2012, 01:10:38 AM »
I think you can make an argument that it really is that rare.

Firstly, remember that not many people have access to true love.  Lots of people could have access to it, but it's not something you can find on demand.  Especially since looking for it probably makes it even harder to find (Since you're looking for it for profit, rather than out of love).

Secondly, weaponising it is bloody difficult.  Remember that in a person it only works on vampires who choose to feed on them (Or whose vampire side is in control).  You can be as truly loved as you want, but unless you have a token of that love, there's nothing you can do to force the catch on a vampire.  Slap Lara all you want, she's not going to blister. 

To actually weaponise it, you're going to need your true love to give you a weapon (or something you can improvise as a weapon) as a token of that love.  Which, again, probably won't work if they're doing it so in order to trigger the catch - It probably needs to be given out of love, not with deliberately weaponising it as the goal.  Otherwise it wouldn't be a "token of love".  Even then, just being given something by the one you love isn't enough, or Whites would blister on contact with Harry's coat, which actually Thomas wears.   

Thirdly, I seriously doubt it's well known outside of the WCV community (and I think it's reasonable to discount them for the purpose of calculating the catch's level of information - The fact that the vast, vast majority of people with knowledge to use the catch aren't capable of doing so really limits it's usefulness.  Thomas is the only White seen to show love, and he's the black sheep of the family).  Remember, Harry only finds out from Thomas, and I can't think of a single mention from the Council of that as their weakness.  Harry never says "Don't worry, I'm protected" to Luccio, or Ebeneezer, when they're worried about Thomas preying on him.  The WCV are masters of controlling information.  It's basically their business (Just ask Stoker and the Blacks).

I agree.

I can however offer another perspective that helps support this.

I'm a cynic.  That's what life does to you, or me in any case.  I still consider myself a hopeless romantic.  In many years i've never found anything close to what I'd consider the White Court catch.  I think it is that rare.

Look at the divorce rate.  How many people cheat?

 People don't fall in love anymore they fall in lust.  Then they fall out of lust and repeat the process.  I applaud the few who actually understand the term love and enjoy it in life.

Point is...I know hundreds of people, maybe thousands peripherally.  One couple had anything close to what I consider True Love.  Then they split because one died.

Then the question of how you weaponize it?

Narrative only more or less.  A knight given a token of affection by his love won't cut it.  Lets just say it was a lock of hair.  lets say he did tie it to his blade so it would always be with him.  Then...maybe it would count.  I still doubt it.

Where this conversation is leading us is to one point that makes people uncomfortable.

It is rare enough that very few people are ever that happy.  Now: It is your job as GM to explain to people in your gaming group what it is, how it works, and how common it is. 

Also, let's weaponize it and cheapen it!

I think it fits +0 as a symbol.  That it is rare and it is special.  How did Dresden and Thomas both find it?  They are characters of an author  it doesn't have to be fair that the good guys always eventually win... The author also ruins their lives all the time.   

Which brings up the uncomfortable fact that love hurts. (not a pun nor a weapon ;p)

So allow me to soften all of this with my standard disclaimer:  It is your game - do what you want.  Just don't expect hte forum to agree with you or come to anything resembling an agreement on True Emotions (love or otherwise) ; nor the rebate associated with it.


Though if I want to play devils advocate: which I always do...

Spoilered because it talks about the novels and is sort of a cause for debate.

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Offline THE_ANGRY_GAMER

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Re: Why is the true love catch +0?
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2012, 01:24:35 AM »
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As far as I understand it, the burning is due to the way significant portions of one's life force or soul are shared during sex, even more with True Love. If you have sex with someone else, their life force wipes away your love's.

Also, for Raiths, you must be loved back to get the protection. It has to be mutual. If either party is not in True Love with the other, then no protection. Since Justine's new, ahem, 'friend' is not in love with Justine, and Justine not in love with her, hte method should work.

Although, I'd love to see Harry walk into Thomas's apartment and find him with all-over burns because they didn't think things through  :P.
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Offline tymire

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Re: Why is the true love catch +0?
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2012, 06:09:57 PM »
Also remember that Justine is a bit crazy.  She doesn't think that sex has anything to do with love...

Past that Thomas works as hair dresser, and feeds at work.  You can easly infer if that is the case he couldn't do this if True Love was at all common.

It's one of the places where gameplay doesn't match up with what happens in the novels *shrug*.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Why is the true love catch +0?
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2012, 06:28:47 PM »
As far as I understand it, the burning is due to the way significant portions of one's life force or soul are shared during sex, even more with True Love. If you have sex with someone else, their life force wipes away your love's.

Also, for Raiths, you must be loved back to get the protection. It has to be mutual. If either party is not in True Love with the other, then no protection. Since Justine's new, ahem, 'friend' is not in love with Justine, and Justine not in love with her, hte method should work.

Although, I'd love to see Harry walk into Thomas's apartment and find him with all-over burns because they didn't think things through  :P.
What seems to matter there is whether the last person you slept with had true love with you. For whatever value "True Love" is, who you got down with last seems to be the "on/off switch" for the protection itself. Madeline mentions that she'd be free to feed on Justine if she has sex with someone else.

Also remember that Justine is a bit crazy.  She doesn't think that sex has anything to do with love...
Um...yes, you can have sex without loving the other person at all. How is that "crazy"?
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Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Why is the true love catch +0?
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2012, 02:24:34 AM »
If she doesn't connect love to sex then shouldn't she still be in True Love with Thomas? 

Therefore it should hurt him.  It doesn't seem to.

I greatly dislike this loophole that was created.  Sadly, that appears to be canon --- then it should be even harder to hurt a WCV with their catch...making it more worthy of a +0.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Why is the true love catch +0?
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2012, 03:05:31 AM »
If she doesn't connect love to sex then shouldn't she still be in True Love with Thomas? 

Therefore it should hurt him.  It doesn't seem to.

I greatly dislike this loophole that was created.  Sadly, that appears to be canon --- then it should be even harder to hurt a WCV with their catch...making it more worthy of a +0.
The "loophole" was created three books ago.
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Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Why is the true love catch +0?
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2012, 12:22:31 PM »
I thought that was because he actually moved on.


You aren't making me like the loophole anymore.  I feel the concept of it is cheapend dramatically now.

Ah well.  I don't have to like everything written. 

Offline Tarion

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Re: Why is the true love catch +0?
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2012, 01:22:27 PM »
If she doesn't connect love to sex then shouldn't she still be in True Love with Thomas? 

Therefore it should hurt him.  It doesn't seem to.

I greatly dislike this loophole that was created.  Sadly, that appears to be canon --- then it should be even harder to hurt a WCV with their catch...making it more worthy of a +0.
I don't think the books make the connection between True Love and sex in the same way that you do.  In Blood Rites (IIRC) Thomas is quite explicit that the reason True Love and sex make people toxic to the White Court is because sex is both a transformative, magically significant act, and an exchange of essence.  When that essence is of the one you "Truly Love", it mingles with your essence as a whole, essentially.  The last person you had sex with is the most significant influence on your essence (Although Bob does say that there are lots of other, more minor exchanges, such as hugging). 

So when Justine has sex with Mara, it mingles her energy with someone not touched by true love, essentially overwriting the influence on true love. 

Mr. Death, I think the "loop hole" is actually pretty well laid out in Blood Rites, when Thomas is clued in by the fact that Harry's last sexual partner was Susan.
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"The last time you were with anyone, it was with Susan. You love each other. Her touch, her love is still upon you, and still protecting you...If there hasn't been anyone else, then it's still the strongest touch of another life on your own."
Clearly the implication there is that if there had been someone else, she wouldn't have been the strongest influence on him, and so he'd have been vulnerable. 

Offline JDK002

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Re: Why is the true love catch +0?
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2012, 03:48:36 PM »
I tend to agree that it's pretty well laid out from a mechanical standpoint.  When people hear the term "true love" they get this notion of it being some intangible idea.

This loophole clearly says it's not the idea or feeling of true love itself that gives protection.  But the sharing of life energy with someone you're in love with and is in love with you. 

Offline Judanas

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Re: Why is the true love catch +0?
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2012, 04:38:05 PM »
Children born of True Love probably wouldn't count.

Not even if thrown?

Offline JDK002

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Re: Why is the true love catch +0?
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2012, 04:51:13 PM »
Not even if thrown?
especially not of thrown!  That would be child abuse and definitly not an act oftrue love. XD

Offline InFerrumVeritas

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Re: Why is the true love catch +0?
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2012, 06:06:22 PM »
especially not of thrown!  That would be child abuse and definitly not an act oftrue love. XD

Tough Love is True Love.  Love Hurts. 

(Okay, not really.  Child abuse is a serious problem.)