Author Topic: The importance of Names.  (Read 10565 times)

Offline Serack

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Re: The importance of Names.
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2012, 11:36:15 AM »
Billy and Georgia cam from Ally McBeal, which Shannon watched a lot of while Jim was writing.

*looking for the WOJ now*
*I completely failed at finding the right WOJ.  Help someone? Anyone? Help?*

Yah, that's right although I am having trouble finding it too.  Jim didn't even realize it conciously at the time.  I think it was years later when Shanon was watching reruns that he realized it.

The forum search engine is giving me a response full of nothing (what I call it when I get 25 hits without the actual search term in them).  I thought it might be in the atlanta signing, but it isn't in the transcripts.

Maybe it was in one of the 2 audio interviews he did late last year.  It was a rather recent WoJ
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Offline Second Aristh

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Re: The importance of Names.
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2012, 01:53:06 PM »
Yah, that's right although I am having trouble finding it too.  Jim didn't even realize it conciously at the time.  I think it was years later when Shanon was watching reruns that he realized it.

The forum search engine is giving me a response full of nothing (what I call it when I get 25 hits without the actual search term in them).  I thought it might be in the atlanta signing, but it isn't in the transcripts.

Maybe it was in one of the 2 audio interviews he did late last year.  It was a rather recent WoJ
I don't know about the audio interviews, but the WoJ is typed out explicitly here
http://www.orbitbooks.net/2011/04/26/something-borrowed/
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Offline ImpishMortal

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Re: The importance of Names.
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2012, 02:26:37 PM »
Yeah, it was definitely the intro blurb he included before "Something Borrowed" in Side Jobs. :)

Offline Serack

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Re: The importance of Names.
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2012, 03:20:06 PM »
Ahh yes.  Yaknow, I have been wanting to record each of those blerbs into the WoJ section.  I've tried to work a request up the ladder for permission from Jim to write them down vertabatum but the closest I have got is the Admin staff saying "He's buisy, but it should be no problem"

The next time I do some WoJ work I will probably start a new topic quoting those intro's plus the intro to WTTJ, which also has some interesting tidbits. 

It's frustrating when such a tantilizing WoJ escapes my being able to easily reference it because I don't have it in the WoJ section.  I knew I had read it rather recently (I read most of Side Jobs earlier this year), and hadn't really been familiar with it before.
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Offline Thessaly

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Re: The importance of Names.
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2012, 01:01:56 AM »
--> Updated to here <--

Some nice work so far. I seemingly lost the bulk of some of my extrapolations (mostly in regards to the swords and their bearers) somewhere along the way and I'm rebuilding it from memory and researching information I did the first time around. Not to mention this little endeavour will let me savour re-reading the books in anticipation of Cold Days that much more.

Here are the requested citations:

Example of "real mccoy" usage:
[Harry]:"Valmont duped the third party into taking a decoy.  Then she grabbed the real McCoy and ran." (Ch. 14, Death Masks.)

I'm not sure what citations you want here; it's probably TMI, but it was fun skimming Morte. Feel free to pull out whatever you want, or leave it all here if it's too much speculative detail.

That's excellent. In the case of DF-specific information, as this is a spoiler zone, I'm not worried about spoiler information being displayed. In the meantime I'm condensing requested citations to book name and chapter number. In the case of non-DF information, it'll mostly be for information I can't verify myself at an earnest glance online, and the name of the source would be wonderful. (Book or movie title, author or director name, etc.) If it's on Wikipedia, that'll likely pop in a normal search I'll do to verify so I wouldn't worry much about that.

One question--are you only interested in etymologies, not in popular culture references?  If the goal is actually finding JB's inspiration/allusions, pop culture refs are probably significant/useful.  Some names also clearly are pop culture refs, e.g. the tiny tinkerbell-fairy Elidee->LED, the WOJ that explained the origin of Harry Dresden's name, and another WOJ I remember stumbling across that said that Billy and Georgia's names came from a TV program (I did a brief check and couldn't find it....Serack, as resident WOJ rockstar, do you remember it?)

I'm not certain yet. I'd like to know of course, but I'm tempted not to re-compile that information. If there's a connection between why the name was chosen and who the character is, absolutely. Otherwise, if it only fills the object of trivia, I'd say mentioning it would be lovely but I won't compile it, preferring to leave it in the WoJ so it fills a purpose too.

To this end, I added a 'possible connection' tag to infer certain things not immediately found in the meaning of the names, but rather connections to popular culture or other books (or medium) unrelated to the Dresden Files. A wonderful example of this is that you (dimpwnc) edited your reply later (after I included it) to amend that Elaine also committed suicide in two of the Arthurian tales you read. That provided a connection with what the Skavis did to her and her near-suicide attempt in the DF books. That's definitely what I'd love to include; more of the same if you any of you fine and worldly folks can find it!

Jim's frequent use of paraphrasing movies and literature has always been one of the things that cemented the Dresden books for my fertile imagination. It makes them more real when you can think of them existing in the same place as your own. Recognising little tidbits, be it a quote or a similarity to another work, always gives me a good laugh and makes me feel closer to the author.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 04:17:18 AM by Thessaly »
Apologies in advance to those that take out-of-milieu but established character names for their own, but I read it first and it stuck a chord. Zero sarcasm intended.

Offline Thessaly

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Re: The importance of Names.
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2012, 07:46:03 PM »
So, I've been thinking and I've some new connections to many different characters that mostly spin some old Arthurian legends and, well, comic books. Some of this is inspired by Jack Kirby, a comic book artist and editor.

My theories began with similarities between Bob and Etrigan the Demon (he was one of Jack Kirby's DC Comics creations). Etrigan was the son of the demon Belial, and half-brother to Merlin. He has orange skin (the same colour as Bob's eyes), horns, and ears shaped like bat wings.

Merlin summoned Etrigan to gain his secrets and unable to do so, bound him to Jason Blood, a knight in King Arthur's court. This rendered Jason immortal (similarities to Harry) and he often thought of it as penance or a curse. After the Fall of Camelot Jason Blood and Madame Xanadu (those of you that read Thomas Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur, she is identified as Nimue, youngest sister of Morgana/Morgaine Le Fay) keep traveling England for an unspecified time, assembling a rag-tag team of Dark Ages based heroes and villains, like Vandal Savage (solid ties to Marcone), the female Shining Knight and the warrior woman Exoristos (The Exile in Greek -- solid ties to Karrin Murphy) to fight Mordru and the Questing Queen (connections to Cowl). As eventually they parted way, Jason Blood resurfaces in recent times, becoming a prominent demonologist in Gotham City.

Etrigan is a demon from Hell who, despite his violent tendencies, usually finds himself allied to the forces of good, mainly because of the alliance between the heroic characters of the DC Universe and Jason Blood, a human to whom Etrigan is bound. Etrigan is followed by the long-lived Morgaine le Fey, who lusts for Merlin's secrets. That leads to Etrigan's first major battle. Over the years, Etrigan both clashes with and occasionally aids Earth's heroes, guided by his own whims and Jason's attempts to turn his infernal power to good use.

Remarkable what comic books can inadvertently shed light on.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 08:16:52 PM by Thessaly »
Apologies in advance to those that take out-of-milieu but established character names for their own, but I read it first and it stuck a chord. Zero sarcasm intended.

Offline AxGrinder

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Re: The importance of Names.
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2012, 12:15:34 AM »
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that last name for Michael's family: Carpenter.  As in--the profession of Jesus' earthly father and most likely the profession he himself followed until his ministry?  It's also more literal as Michael is in the construction trade.

Offline chocclare

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Re: The importance of Names.
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2012, 09:11:15 AM »
Talking of which (and apologies for being slightly off-topic) can any of you Americans tell this poor Brit WHY Harry was appalled that the Carpenters named their son Harry?  There is a sports commentator named Harry Carpenter in the UK but I don't know of any other reference and it's obviously a joke in the book which I Just Don't Get...  ::)

Offline Second Aristh

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Re: The importance of Names.
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2012, 12:00:05 AM »
Talking of which (and apologies for being slightly off-topic) can any of you Americans tell this poor Brit WHY Harry was appalled that the Carpenters named their son Harry?  There is a sports commentator named Harry Carpenter in the UK but I don't know of any other reference and it's obviously a joke in the book which I Just Don't Get...  ::)
I assumed that Harry Carpenter sounds too much like hairy carpenter.
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Offline chocclare

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Re: The importance of Names.
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2012, 10:40:52 PM »
I assumed that Harry Carpenter sounds too much like hairy carpenter.
  LOL  ;D

To get back on topic, Marcone is not his real name either.  I had assumed his real name would be something in the order of Gianmarco Something (Rossi maybe, as that's the Italian equivalent of Smith?  ;D).  The suffix -one is Italian for "big", so Gianmarco becomes John Marco(ne), implying that he is bigger in his new persona than he was before.  Etymology, ftw!

Or, of course, he COULD just be called Marcone because he's a Mafia boss and his name is (sort of) like Capone...

Offline Marie August

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Re: The importance of Names.
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2012, 10:47:04 PM »
I assumed that Harry Carpenter sounds too much like hairy carpenter.

Harry anything can always sound like "hairy". But there are worse last names to go next to it than Carpenter.

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Offline Thessaly

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Re: The importance of Names.
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2012, 12:12:24 AM »
  LOL  ;D

To get back on topic, Marcone is not his real name either.  I had assumed his real name would be something in the order of Gianmarco Something (Rossi maybe, as that's the Italian equivalent of Smith?  ;D).  The suffix -one is Italian for "big", so Gianmarco becomes John Marco(ne), implying that he is bigger in his new persona than he was before.  Etymology, ftw!

Major life-altering changes coincides, betimes, a change in one's name. (Probably the only time, really.) The old name has no more relevance to who they are now than hair as a material binding to someone that shaved their head. There's no magical connection. It's theirs, but it no longer applies to them as how they are now. Besides, in choosing his own Name one assumes there to be greater abundance of meaning involved in the act that applies to their person.

Hairy Carpenter, ha!

I just figured Harry was dismayed as any boy or girl who has been teased about their name growing up. Incredulity that parents would willingly name someone with the same name is par for the course.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 12:14:03 AM by Thessaly »
Apologies in advance to those that take out-of-milieu but established character names for their own, but I read it first and it stuck a chord. Zero sarcasm intended.

Offline Second Aristh

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Re: The importance of Names.
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2012, 12:41:06 AM »
Major life-altering changes coincides, betimes, a change in one's name. (Probably the only time, really.) The old name has no more relevance to who they are now than hair as a material binding to someone that shaved their head. There's no magical connection. It's theirs, but it no longer applies to them as how they are now. Besides, in choosing his own Name one assumes there to be greater abundance of meaning involved in the act that applies to their person.
I wouldn't be so sure.  Have you seen this WoJ?

Quote
I read the short story from Marcone's point of view, Even Hand, and I noticed that John Marcone is not his real name. Is that going to be significant?
Sure is if somebody tries to cast a spell at him using the name John Marcone! That would be a big deal. We'll have to see how that works out. Actually the character that's really interesting is the Mirror Mirror universe Marcone, and we'll get to him in a few books.
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Offline Thessaly

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Re: The importance of Names.
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2012, 01:05:22 AM »
I wouldn't be so sure.  Have you seen this WoJ?

If anything, it only confirms the theory (mixed with something I mentioned in another thread. (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,32594.0.html)

However, that conversation has its own place at the moment, and isn't really part of the nature of this one.
Apologies in advance to those that take out-of-milieu but established character names for their own, but I read it first and it stuck a chord. Zero sarcasm intended.