Power Rewrite: Physical Immunity

[Silverblaze]

O.k...so I might be out of my depth here but I'd like to offer some input.

As tedronai said, a loophole is just another word for a catch so it's already included in the power.  I like the idea of tying the Immunity Power(not necessarily the catch) to an aspect or high concept for a few reasons:

1.  There are already many powers that have that as a pre-requisite
2.  It would limit ridiculous "catches" because the power/catch would have to make sense for the character
3.  Tying it to an aspect lets you use compels/fate points for the purpose of maneuvers.

So if someone tries to pin you, but you're immune to fists, you could spend a fate point to say you're immune to that sort of maneuver.  Or maybe the GM says you don't need pay...whatever.  The point is the aspect can dictate whether a maneuver may or may not work.

I think the main argument, unless I'm reading it wrong, is about immunity with no loopholes.  Once again, if you tie it to an aspect, creative players/GM's can use compels to find ways to bypass invincibility(at least temporarily) by way of fate points, even if the enemy has no true catch.

Sorry if I've already repeated something that's already been written...I admit that I skimmed a good portion of the middle part of the thead.

I...uh...find your post compelling and I like it.

This works for me.

I think it pleases me and for the most part fixes most of my worries. 

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't understand how that solves anything, but whatever. If that's what you wanna do, I'm cool with that.

I could have sworn you were against catches on full invincibility because then the power didn't make people truly invincible.

No, I was against your method of applying Catches because it was atrociously sloppy.

[Silverblaze]

I don't understand how that solves anything, but whatever. If that's what you wanna do, I'm cool with that.

No, I was against your method of applying Catches because it was atrociously sloppy.

Gotta appreciate your honesty. Blunt isn't bad.  Don't get me wrong.

I just wish I didn't get called an asshole when I was that honest.



So you think you can stand to deal with such an atrociously sloppy person long enough to settle on a cost for full invincibility to one stress track and then the cost for two full stress tracks so we can be done with this?

[Sanctaphrax]

Gotta appreciate your honesty. Blunt isn't bad.  Don't get me wrong.

I just wish I didn't get called an asshole when I was that honest.

I promise not to call you an asshole if you're blunt with me.

So you think you can stand to deal with such an atrociously sloppy person long enough to settle on a cost for full invincibility to one stress track and then the cost for two full stress tracks so we can be done with this?

You aren't an atrociously sloppy person. Your idea is not you, and we all have bad ideas sometimes.

Anyway, yeah. Let's get this done.

I'm thinking a cost of 9 is still good for mental immunity. Being immune to any all mental stuff is cool and all...but it's not nearly as powerful as full physical immunity.

But I'm having second thoughts about full physical immunity. It needs to cost more than any character would ever invest in other defensive stuff. Which means that whatever cost we pick for it basically puts a ceiling on what other stuff can cost. So it needs to cost a LOT. More than 16.

ACaEBG really throws this off, though. Its existence means that even full Immunity is not really full. Which means it doesn't really need to cost that much.

Of course, TiNS unthrows it. So it's back to being full, and therefore super expensive.

The question now is whether we want it to be possible to use it with TiNS.

Here's what I'm leaning towards: stat Immunity under the assumption that ACaEBG and company are there to limit its power. Rewrite TiNS to make it cost a lot extra with Immunity, or to not work at all with it if we can't find a finite cost for infinite protection.

Under that model, it'll cost maybe 16 and it'll involve a very long note section.

How's that sound?

[Becq]

Probably a stupid idea, but I'll throw it out anyway:

What if you let the player/character/GM decide how much the immunity costs?  However much refresh they pay, that number becomes the difficulty on their opponent's attempts to assess and/or obtain the substance satisfying the Catch.  So there's always a Catch, but it might be that even the character doesn't realize that he's immune to everything except the toenail shaved from Lucifer's "Little Piggy Who Stayed Home" -- but someone with enough aspects to throw around might be able to divine it.

Just a random thought.  Now back you your regularly scheduled argument.

[Sanctaphrax]

Kind of interesting, but I don't think it scales well.

1 Refresh for immunity to every non-prepared opponent is really cheap. But what you get for 2 Refresh isn't much better than what you get for 1.

Anyway...the argument is actually pretty much over. Through mechanisms that I do not fully understand, we seems to have some kind of accord.

[Silverblaze]

I deem it well and done.  I like Becq's idea.  It may work well, but for everyone's sanity I suggest we simply create the power as is.

When hte power is done and posted tothe master list.

We can sit here as good forumites and postulate how to make becq's idea work.  We may even decide we like it better.

[Sanctaphrax]

I think that Becq's idea would work better if the cost started at 5ish and for every extra point invested you raised the difficulty to find the Catch by 2. Because doubling the difficulty to get The Catch does not double the Power's power.

Anyway, Silverblaze. What do you think of:

I'm thinking a cost of 9 is still good for mental immunity. Being immune to any all mental stuff is cool and all...but it's not nearly as powerful as full physical immunity.

But I'm having second thoughts about full physical immunity. It needs to cost more than any character would ever invest in other defensive stuff. Which means that whatever cost we pick for it basically puts a ceiling on what other stuff can cost. So it needs to cost a LOT. More than 16.

ACaEBG really throws this off, though. Its existence means that even full Immunity is not really full. Which means it doesn't really need to cost that much.

Of course, TiNS unthrows it. So it's back to being full, and therefore super expensive.

The question now is whether we want it to be possible to use it with TiNS.

Here's what I'm leaning towards: stat Immunity under the assumption that ACaEBG and company are there to limit its power. Rewrite TiNS to make it cost a lot extra with Immunity, or to not work at all with it if we can't find a finite cost for infinite protection.

Under that model, it'll cost maybe 16 and it'll involve a very long note section.

How's that sound?

[Silverblaze]

I also felt that 16 was too low.

I think we need to calculate full physical immunity and calculate full physical and mental immunity.

It should not cost the same as adding them togther.

I think -22 sounds good for full physical immunity.

For full physical and mental close to -30.

These are fairly arbitrary numbers at present because I am very busy today.

Maybe a nice mix of the two we could find costing to be near -25 refresh.

The TINS/ACAEBG are a seperate issue.  Groups will have to decide that on their own.  i think if the two immunity powers are allowed at all and if they are allowed to be used in tandem the power cost should be near double. 

Then a PC will basically never have such a combination.

This post was hasty and I'll admit sloppy, but the basic ideas are sound and basically in agreement with your own.

[Sanctaphrax]

Numbers sound okay to me.

TINS and ACaEBG are separate issues, but their existence is relevant. Powers don't exist in a vacuum, they must be balanced against the environment they exist in.

So, we're looking at

-22 or so for perfect physical immunity
-9 for perfect mental immunity
-30 for both.
-And a note discussing the various issues here

Assuming that's correct, let's get this thing done.

If you want to do the last writeup, feel free.

[Silverblaze]

I'll do that. 

Likely sometime tomorrow.  I have an early morning, so I'll be crashing soon.

I'll be using your ...formatting so when you move it to the other thread you have to do less work.

[Silverblaze]

This power is designed to replace Physical immunity -

IMMUNITY [-varies]
Description: You are completely immune to some form of harm.
Note: The cost examples provided here are intended for the hypothetical average game. In unusual games, they may need to be adjusted. In some rare cases, it may qualify as a Compel when this Power does not apply.
Skills Affected: Many.
Effects:
Immunity. Pick a type of stress. You are immune to that type of stress. This may prevent certain maneuvers and blocks from functioning, at the GM's discretion.
Variable Cost. The cost of this Power depends on the type of stress selected.
•Completely trivial immunities, like drunk-ness or bad smells, are free.
•Very narrow ones, like monkey wrenches or seduction attempts or falling damage, cost 1 Refresh.

•Narrow immunities like poison or acid or magically induced despair cost 2 Refresh.
•Immunity to a single common thing, like metal weaponry or explosions or fear, costs 3 Refresh.
•Immunity to a broad group of things, like the physical attacks of the undead or mental magic, costs 4 Refresh.
•Immunity to an extremely broad group of things, like all magic (including indirect spells) or all unarmed attacks, costs 5 Refresh.
•Immunity to everything (on a single stress track) except something very common, like the attacks of women, costs 6 Refresh.
•Immunity to everything (on a single stress track) except something unusual, like the attacks of immortal beings, costs 7 Refresh.
•Immunity to everything (on a single stress track) with a small loophole, like the attacks of genderless beings, costs 8 Refresh.
•Immunity to all mental stress costs 9 Refresh
  Immunity to all physical stress costs 22 Refresh.
•Immunity to both costs 30 Refresh.


Sanctaphrax will of course add some notes as needed. 

-physical immunity in this case means nothing at all damages the character accept for thingsl ike ACAEBG,Soulfire (which reduces protection ot mythic toughness), sacred guardian, holy touch (where applicable)
-in some cases immunity to manuevers will be implied and vary from table to table, based on the narrative of the immunity. 
-ACAEBG
-TINS


Something I'd advise that likely won't be in hte notes of the power but very well could be, depending upon Sanctaphrzes notes: if PC's are allowed to have Physical Immunity (-22) or Perfect immunity (-30) effects that bypass all protection should possibly be more common.  However, the costs should maybe be lowered to reflect this.


Sanctaphrax: one last thing ; you can add or not.  Things that are immune to all physical damage except things like kryptonite, or dwarven weapons, or blood of the gods.... do we have a cost for that or should we add a category for such a thing?

[Tedronai]

Sanctaphrax: one last thing ; you can add or not.  Things that are immune to all physical damage except things like kryptonite, or dwarven weapons, or blood of the gods.... do we have a cost for that or should we add a category for such a thing?

Sounds like 'one small loophole' to me.

[Silverblaze]

*I figured but wanted some opinions on it.  Could cost narrower things at -10 if needed.

[Tedronai]

*I figured but wanted some opinions on it.  Could cost narrower things at -10 if needed.

The -8 'small loophole' line also applies to mental stress, which is available without the loophole at -9.  -10, then, for 'a particularly especially small loophole', would seem...contradictory.