PG: combining Neurovore and Knnn.

[King Ash]

I was referring to when he first met the Scarecrow or was in the middle of running away from it.

Judging from Harry's comments during the final fight that is because he was afraid of it. The fetch feeds on fear and the more fear you feel the less successful your magic is. I'll look for some quotes when I haves some more time.

[Thork]

"Trying to overthrow Mab" is one idea, but that theory depends on the athame acting as a corrupting influence, so I don't buy it.  "Fighting--and losing to--something powerful and Outsidery" better fits the data, in my opinion.

There's textual support for this:

Some of the strength seemed to ebb from her, and she suddenly seemed exhausted. “I grew too arrogant with the power I held. I thought I could overcome what stalks us all. Foolish. Milady Queen Mab taught me the error of my ways.”
 

"What stalks us all" is pretty ambiguous. Death? Mortality? Who is "us all" -- all Fae? All Fae and humans together, since she's talking to Harry? The Walkers?

Judging from Harry's comments during the final fight that is because he was afraid of it. The fetch feeds on fear and the more fear you feel the less successful your magic is. I'll look for some quotes when I haves some more time.

Yeah, I think one valid reading of that is that Summer's fire gave Harry the mental "warmth" to charge his magic and wipe out his fear; not so much that Captain Kudzu was vulnerable to Summer Fire specifically, as a thing, but that Harry was able to defeat the Fetch because he was infused with Summer Fire and it helped him blank out his fear, charged his magic, refreshed his mana points, whatever, etc.

[King Ash]

I was referring to when he first met the Scarecrow or was in the middle of running away from it.

I went looking for it, but the closest thing that I could find was that Harry unleashed an enormous amount of magic including hellfire that should have knocked if halfway to Michigan but that it just stepped through it. I mention of cold or the magic dissapearing. Harry's comments at Arctis Tor about fear stopping it from working seems most likely.

[King Ash]

Yeah, I think one valid reading of that is that Summer's fire gave Harry the mental "warmth" to charge his magic and wipe out his fear; not so much that Captain Kudzu was vulnerable to Summer Fire specifically, as a thing, but that Harry was able to defeat the Fetch because he was infused with Summer Fire and it helped him blank out his fear, charged his magic, refreshed his mana points, whatever, etc.

I dont think the Summer Fire wiped out his fear, as he specifically states that he had nothing left in him including fear and that he could beat it if he had enough strength to work magic. I think the Fire just recharged his magical tanks.

[Vairelome]

It coming from Cowl, who when he's not out there faking Darkhallows to kill off Kemmlerites, is pretty much an Outsider sort of guy.

Fair point, though for the other reasons I pointed out, I think it ends up being a red herring.

because I think "possession" looks like a much better word.

Quite possibly, though the next question would be, "What was the vector of the possessing influence?" and I think a hypothetical combat opponent fits better than the athame itself.

There's textual support for this:

Some of the strength seemed to ebb from her, and she suddenly seemed exhausted. “I grew too arrogant with the power I held. I thought I could overcome what stalks us all. Foolish. Milady Queen Mab taught me the error of my ways.”

"What stalks us all" is pretty ambiguous. Death? Mortality? Who is "us all" -- all Fae? All Fae and humans together, since she's talking to Harry? The Walkers?

Yeah, that's the line I was looking for.  As far as what "what stalks us all" is, my top two picks are "some hideously scary Fomor thing (with Outsider connections)" or HWWB.  The first pick is due to the Fomor being ancient rivals of the Fae and probable post-Changes BC stooges (gives you "enemy of Winter" and "Outsider connections," respectively).  The second pick is due to HWWB being a long-term threat to Lea's ward, an Outsider himself, and the eerie similarity in phrasing.  (What stalks us all?  He Who Walks Behind.)

[Thork]

The way I read "what stalks us all," I think Lea is speaking broadly.

If "all' means the  fae collectively? Perhaps the fomor collectively, perhaps Death, perhaps Cold Iron (perhaps as personified by Ferrovax?) Mortal technology? 

The impression I get here is that Lea is talking about something more powerful than the Fae as a group, or more powerful than the fae+humanity as a group. Something more powerful than Winter and Summer as concepts. Entropy, death, some primal principle.

Or maybe she just means the Circle / Black Council.

[Ms Duck]

one thought:

just because lord raith had outsider conections, and justin had outsider conections, and the black court may have outsider conections, does not mean cowl does, or that they are all on the same team.

the way i see it, the outsiders are living nuclear weapons, that want to be used, and can only be called in. they got a taste of this world during the black court war, or earlier, and have been trying to get some idiot to open a full gate ever since. the easist way to to do that is by escalation- they offer very generous deals to everyone who comes calling, asuming sometime sooner or later some idoit will open the door.

so lots of people will have outsider conections, but not be on the same team- in fact, they are liekly to be opsing each other. one side gets nukes, then the next has to get them in reaction.

[lt_murgen]

I had an interesting thought as I read through all of the posts.

One of the distinguishing things of the Fea is that they cannot lie and that they must honor their word once given.  It is part of their nature.  It is something they must be aware of constantly- not only current commitments but the effect of new ones upon old commitments.  It is speculated (and I believe true) that if a Fae were to have two mutually exclusive commitments, it would severly weaken them.  Given this, here is my speculation:

-Lea gives a promise to Maggie to protect Harry. 
-Mab forsees the coming rise of the outsiders, and enters into a deal to prevent it at all costs.  Part of this deal has to do with Harry either becoming an agent of winter or a member of the Black Council, and it doesn't bode well for him.
-Lea realizes this puts her in a bind- on one side she has her oath to Maggie, on the other her fealty to Mab.  Mab, of course, sees it as a chance to put some limitations on an powerful subordinate.  So Lea casts about for the power to do the unthinkable- to lie and break oaths.
-Someone sells Lea on the idea that the Athame would grant her that power.  She trades it for locking summer and winter into a stalemate, so the Red Court can come and go through the nevernever and further the aims of the anti-wizard portion of the Black Council.
-Now Mab is in a real bind.  So she imprisons Lea and takes the athame.  Then she sets about showing Lea how to properly handle balancing a debt ledger.

So, from a certain point of view, PG was all about showing Mab showing Lea how to further her own ends while eliminating debts.  Mab showed her that true power lies not in some artifact, but in being smart, and clever, and quick.  As Lea said "Milady Queen Mab taught me the error of my ways."

[Ms Duck]

I had an interesting thought as I read through all of the posts.

One of the distinguishing things of the Fea is that they cannot lie and that they must honor their word once given.  It is part of their nature.  It is something they must be aware of constantly- not only current commitments but the effect of new ones upon old commitments.  It is speculated (and I believe true) that if a Fae were to have two mutually exclusive commitments, it would severly weaken them.  Given this, here is my speculation:

-Lea gives a promise to Maggie to protect Harry. 
-Mab forsees the coming rise of the outsiders, and enters into a deal to prevent it at all costs.  Part of this deal has to do with Harry either becoming an agent of winter or a member of the Black Council, and it doesn't bode well for him.
-Lea realizes this puts her in a bind- on one side she has her oath to Maggie, on the other her fealty to Mab.  Mab, of course, sees it as a chance to put some limitations on an powerful subordinate.  So Lea casts about for the power to do the unthinkable- to lie and break oaths.
-Someone sells Lea on the idea that the Athame would grant her that power.  She trades it for locking summer and winter into a stalemate, so the Red Court can come and go through the nevernever and further the aims of the anti-wizard portion of the Black Council.
-Now Mab is in a real bind.  So she imprisons Lea and takes the athame.  Then she sets about showing Lea how to properly handle balancing a debt ledger.

So, from a certain point of view, PG was all about showing Mab showing Lea how to further her own ends while eliminating debts.  Mab showed her that true power lies not in some artifact, but in being smart, and clever, and quick.  As Lea said "Milady Queen Mab taught me the error of my ways."

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

just because lord raith had outsider conections, and justin had outsider conections, and the black court may have outsider conections, does not mean cowl does, or that they are all on the same team.

We know that the Council destroy information related specifically to dangerous lawbreaking - like Kemmler's writings, as Bob says at the start of DB.  That's one reason to think information about Outsiders is limited and not in common currency.

Harry knows precious little about them, and him getting new information about them is a big deal when it happens. That's another.

For those of you who believe the Oblivion War is what it seems to be, there's an additional set of people whose actions would work against Outsider knowledge being common.

The thing about Justin and Lord R both having Outsidery knowledge is that we have an established connection between them; they were both associates of Maggie during her time on the dark side.  They may not always have been working with the same motivations but the information there could totally have flowed from one of them to the other without needing any more supporting evidence than what we have now.  Fitting Cowl in with that cabal would reduce every demonstrated non-White Council bit of Outsider knowledge to one source, and with the above points for Outsider knowledge being restricted, I find that plausible. (Cowl being Simon would make this particularly neat.)

I'm not seeing where you're getting the Black Court having Outsider connections from, though Mavra getting them through Cowl would fit with my take on things here.  I can totally buy your living nuclear weapons analogy if we consider the Dresdenverse now as being somewhere in the mid-1940s as proliferation goes, but I think they'd be a sight better known if lots of power groups had the capacity to call on them.

[Thork]

I definitely agree insofar as I think it's very, very possible, even likely, that the "Circle" / "Black Council" is not anywhere near as unified or cohesive a group as we may expect them to be. Martin's quote on how every time the White Council achieved even a minor stalemate, the entire Red Court dissolved into horribly divisive infighting, makes me strongly suspect that a similar mechanic is occurring between members of "The Circle," whomsoever they are.

Hell, if we're correct that the Erlking handed out the Hexenwolf belts, then perhaps Cowl's goal in Dead Beat wasn't so much the assumption of power per se, but just to take out a rival member of said Circle (the Erlking) by consuming his power necromantically.

EDIT: it's possible that many of the plots we've seen so far are actually competing power plays by members of the Circle against each other.

[Ms Duck]

We know that the Council destroy information related specifically to dangerous lawbreaking - like Kemmler's writings, as Bob says at the start of DB.  That's one reason to think information about Outsiders is limited and not in common currency.

Harry knows precious little about them, and him getting new information about them is a big deal when it happens. That's another.

For those of you who believe the Oblivion War is what it seems to be, there's an additional set of people whose actions would work against Outsider knowledge being common.

The thing about Justin and Lord R both having Outsidery knowledge is that we have an established connection between them; they were both associates of Maggie during her time on the dark side.  They may not always have been working with the same motivations but the information there could totally have flowed from one of them to the other without needing any more supporting evidence than what we have now.  Fitting Cowl in with that cabal would reduce every demonstrated non-White Council bit of Outsider knowledge to one source, and with the above points for Outsider knowledge being restricted, I find that plausible. (Cowl being Simon would make this particularly neat.)

I'm not seeing where you're getting the Black Court having Outsider connections from, though Mavra getting them through Cowl would fit with my take on things here.  I can totally buy your living nuclear weapons analogy if we consider the Dresdenverse now as being somewhere in the mid-1940s as proliferation goes, but I think they'd be a sight better known if lots of power groups had the capacity to call on them.

thing is , lovecraft did write a few books on the subject. as did the mad arab. much like nuclear secrets, everyone knows the general details but very few people know how to make uranium hexa fluriode, or how to focus the blast shell. And i suspect every major oprginization has a department full of boffins figuring that out.

as to the black court, i get that from lash's comments in WN

as to the real world analogy, i see the series as two parts-

the first dozen books are set in nthe 1950s, with the ex allies conesting for power, with the reds as the soviet union, the white court as china, the WC as nato, and the black court being the leftover nazis hiding in argentina.

 the post changes books i see as after the fall of the soviets. Now wether the BC will rise up, hydra like, is up to JIm.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

thing is , lovecraft did write a few books on the subject. as did the mad arab.

And so far as we have any relevant information, the Council shut them both down, which i think supports my point.

as to the black court, i get that from lash's comments in WN

To what are you referring here ?

the first dozen books are set in nthe 1950s, with the ex allies conesting for power, with the reds as the soviet union, the white court as china, the WC as nato, and the black court being the leftover nazis hiding in argentina.
 the post changes books i see as after the fall of the soviets. Now wether the BC will rise up, hydra like, is up to JIm.

i suspect that the latter half of the casebooks will be more like the post-fall-of-the-Soviet-Union chaos people like Anthony Price were afraid of than the realities of the post-fall-of-the-Soviet-Union world, fwiw.

[Ms Duck]

And so far as we have any relevant information, the Council shut them both down, which i think supports my point.

To what are you referring here ?

i suspect that the latter half of the casebooks will be more like the post-fall-of-the-Soviet-Union chaos people like Anthony Price were afraid of than the realities of the post-fall-of-the-Soviet-Union world, fwiw.

as stoker was 'killed for being delicous' and lovecraft may have had a simillar fate, im not sure the WCouncil was involved. all we know about them was the gatekeeper killed the mad arab, likely for gatekeerper reasons

and the last thing lash says, about harrys mother, the black court, and the outsiders. i cant quote now, anyone have it available?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

as stoker was 'killed for being delicous' and lovecraft may have had a simillar fate, im not sure the WCouncil was involved. all we know about them was the gatekeeper killed the mad arab, likely for gatekeerper reasons

I'm kind of thinking that "Gatekeeper reasons" are likely to map fairly closely onto "keep the Outsiders out" and thence logically to "shut down any information about them that's floating around"; it seems to me to be implicit in the job title.

and the last thing lash says, about harrys mother, the black court, and the outsiders. i cant quote now, anyone have it available?

The "complex set of circumstances" bit ? I'm in work without my books, but I'm not remembering anything about the Black Court in it.