Author Topic: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent  (Read 76675 times)

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #45 on: March 31, 2012, 04:14:15 PM »
Actually all sorts of things disagree with you. Firstly according to thematics a circle is something any mortal can do at any time if they have sufficient knowledge and a little blood. Secondly mortals can actually perform rituals without having the ritual power. It's called "Common Ritual" and it's a trapping Lore.
Common rituals, yes.
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And again this bothers me, because you are forcing a severe mechanical handicap, with absolutely no mechanical upside. If you offer this solution to a character who proposes the "Wild talent" character concept, they will turn you down and find something else to play. Then you will never have a "Wild talent" character, which is a pity because they can be lots of fun.
Hate to say it, but sometimes not every character concept works out. Some things just don't work in any given system.

Of course, there's nothing stopping me or any other player from coming up with a custom power for this purpose--probably something 1 refresh that they could upgrade to one of the dedicated spellcasting powers. Something like, "Once a scene, you can use your innate talents for a +2 bonus to block and maneuver actions."

Edit: Actually, that sounds like a good idea. I think I'll write something up for the Custom Powers thread later.

I just don't see the logic in having a character concept that's based around magic and not having them take some kind of magic power. The setting's pretty clear that if you have magic, that costs something in the way of humanity/free will/whatever you want to call it, represented by Refresh.

Given that, with the right circumstances, you can 'buy' a power for a scene just from spending fate points and that channeling less it's focus item slots is about refresh, I see nothing wrong with someone sufficiently unskilled in magic that they can't reliably call up meaningful amounts of power having their unreliable access to magic represented as a few aspects that the occasionally invoke for trivial spells.
True, but I got the sense from that write-up that temporary powers were meant to be along the lines of "You grab Mjolnir for a scene" or "The Demon lets you use a little bit of his juice for a while," not something that's supposed to be an inborn ability of the character.

I mean, under that logic, you could have a "pure mortal" wizard or sorcerer who just spends 3 fate points every time he wants to use Evocation for a scene--but otherwise keeps the +2 refresh bonus.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 04:56:46 PM by Mr. Death »
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Offline GryMor

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #46 on: March 31, 2012, 04:59:01 PM »
True, but I got the sense from that write-up that temporary powers were meant to be along the lines of "You grab Mjolnir for a scene" or "The Demon lets you use a little bit of his juice for a while," not something that's supposed to be an inborn ability of the character.

They also come in handy for self targeted biomancy and kids that have potential but don't know how to tap into themselves yet, so only get a few sparks of power in stressful situations.

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I mean, under that logic, you could have a "pure mortal" wizard or sorcerer who just spends 3 fate points every time he wants to use Evocation for a scene--but otherwise keeps the +2 refresh bonus.

There are some high aspect issues there, but the key point is, for reliable access you spend refresh, for unreliable access you spend fate points per scene and need a good reason for each instance. When you start relying on that access, you spend fate points, but until then, aspects like "Doesn't know he's a Wizard" and "Carry in the making" are handy for accidental magic compels and the occasional emotionally charged outburst.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #47 on: March 31, 2012, 05:08:05 PM »
Hm. Now that I think about it, maybe a -0 refresh power, like Cassandra's Tears. Potentially useful, but at the cost of not having control, tied into the high concept, no refresh cost but it still disqualifies you for the Pure Mortal refresh bonus. How's that sound?
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Offline sinker

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #48 on: March 31, 2012, 05:32:36 PM »
Better, though it still bothers me that there's no mechanical advantage to counter the mechanical downside.

Offline Silverblaze

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #49 on: March 31, 2012, 05:42:19 PM »
Sure there is, you get something; for nothing.  No refresh spent.  Pure Mortals are just that  - pure mortals.  If the forum agrees that an IoP should remove the +2 refresh bonus(which for the vast majority, it does)... why shouldn't a -0 power that grants very very limited spell-like powers?


Offline Mr. Death

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2012, 05:47:05 PM »
The mechanical advantage would be with the power, once a scene you wouldn't have to spend a fate point to invoke it, instead it's one free tag.
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Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2012, 06:18:11 PM »
I'd say that it should cost -1 to have minor magics (the sort of things a wizard can do for free).  Yes, if this the only magic power the character has then it effectively costs -3 (1 for the power, 2 for no longer being pure mortal).

Why?

Because the game (and the books) seems to make it black and white - you either have power (which you put for) for you don't.  Some of the minor supernatural things don't seem worth a point, not when compared to the other 1 point ones, but are all grouped together.

If you look at Dead Beat when Harry is listing off the "powers" of the people huddled at Mac's bar, some of them are very low powered ones - but they are all magic powers.

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Offline Tedronai

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2012, 06:35:46 PM »
If you look at Dead Beat when Harry is listing off the "powers" of the people huddled at Mac's bar, some of them are very low powered ones - but they are all magic powers.

Now go ahead and point to the section where Harry lists off the mechanical representations of those powers and their associated refresh costs.  Because otherwise this is entirely irrelevant.
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Offline sinker

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2012, 06:51:24 PM »
Here's the thing that I see. Everyone is looking at the pure mortal refresh bonus as a thematic thing. Which of course makes absolutely no sense because refresh isn't a function of the setting, but of the system. Pure mortals get more refresh because powers are powerful (two to three times better than equivalent refresh in stunts) and they don't get access to them. It's a balance issue. So if you have a character, which from the system's view has no powers, then they should be pure mortal and gain the refresh bonus. Thematics doesn't (or shouldn't) come into that at all. Especially as I pointed out that this character would have next to nothing over a mortal with a creative player and good aspects.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2012, 07:15:30 PM »
Here's the thing that I see. Everyone is looking at the pure mortal refresh bonus as a thematic thing. Which of course makes absolutely no sense because refresh isn't a function of the setting, but of the system. Pure mortals get more refresh because powers are powerful (two to three times better than equivalent refresh in stunts) and they don't get access to them. It's a balance issue. So if you have a character, which from the system's view has no powers, then they should be pure mortal and gain the refresh bonus. Thematics doesn't (or shouldn't) come into that at all. Especially as I pointed out that this character would have next to nothing over a mortal with a creative player and good aspects.
Neither would someone with only Cassandra's Tears--in fact, having that power arguably makes you worse off than a pure mortal, since not only are you losing that Pure Mortal bonus, but you take a penalty to social rolls and it doesn't help you much mechanically.

Having an innate ability to do magic, or have supernatural power, costs you that Pure Mortal bonus, even if it's something as marginal as Mana Static or as outright detrimental as Cassandra's Tears.

A character with a -0 refresh "Untrained Magic" power allowing them to tag their high concept once a scene has an advantage over a mortal who has to spend a fate point to invoke their high concept. It's not much of an advantage, but I've seen plenty of places where one spent fate point--or not having that one fate point to spend--has made a lot of difference.

Under the original idea, if the Pure Mortal Untrained Mage wanted to use his power once a scene for three scenes, he's down three fate points. Under the -0 power I'm going to write up, he wouldn't have to spend any, so any usage of the power at a rate of 2 or more per Refresh (the GM's 'Okay, you've had a breather' refresh, I mean), he's coming out ahead of the Pure Mortal.
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Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2012, 08:25:22 PM »
Now go ahead and point to the section where Harry lists off the mechanical representations of those powers and their associated refresh costs.  Because otherwise this is entirely irrelevant.

He says they have magical powers - ergo he's listing people who are not pure mortals.  If you want a rules cite then:
"Pure mortals are ordinary (or mundanely extraordinary!) people who don’t have anything supernatural going on—"

Notice how it doesn't say "...who don’t have anything big...".  It's extremely clear - if you have "...anything supernatural going on..." then you're not a Pure Mortal.

As for the cost, being able to do minor impromptu spells seems more useful in play than Wizard’s Constitution or Cassandra’s Tears - so it should cost more.  It seems at least as useful as Cloak of Shadows so -1 is right for it.

Richard

Offline Tedronai

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2012, 08:57:53 PM »
Being able to pay Fate Points to Invoke one of your aspects, conventionally or '-for-effect', is not worth a single point of refresh.  Ever.  All characters have that capability.
Edit: Nor is an aspect, ANY aspect, ever worth refresh.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 09:06:53 PM by Tedronai »
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2012, 12:42:49 AM »
That's why I'm suggesting it be a -0 refresh power that lets you tag it once a scene for free.
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #58 on: April 01, 2012, 12:48:38 AM »
'It' is an aspect.  Not a power.  Attempting to restructure the nature of the debate in order to support your predetermined conclusion won't win you any points, here.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: An idea for modeling completely untrained magical talent
« Reply #59 on: April 01, 2012, 01:04:25 AM »
'It' is an ability to use magic. That makes it a power.
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

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