Author Topic: Magic and Technology  (Read 53416 times)

Offline Samldanach

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Re: Magic and Technology
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2006, 05:44:11 PM »
It's also been pretty thoroughly established that affecting other living things is harder than affecting non-living things (and, yet, affecting mental states isn't, oddly enough).

Personally, I think it has more to do with the number of moving parts.  And, probably, an application of quantum probabilities and chaos theory.  I bet that Harry actually would cause a 16th century clock to pop a spring.  But, Goretex still works just fine around him, despite being vastly more technologically advanced.  The problem becomes magnified when you add active chemical reactions (e.g. internal combustion engines) and electricity, as the scale of the moving parts becomes much smaller.  Allowing chaotic interactions to have more of an effect.

It doesn't do much to explain different mages having different tolerances, though.


Offline houndrogerson

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Re: Magic and Technology
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2006, 04:15:52 AM »
Hi all, first poster here, and what a fun topic to start with.

My two cents is simply this:  I am an avid gamer of many tabletop games (Vampire, Mage, Werewolf, D&D, Trinity, and others), and I've found that it's easier to settle all disputes like this one in the role of the Gamemaster.

When this RPG is published, it will be the standard rule set to work with, or from.  If, in the end, the rules state that Magic and Technology are mutually exclusive, then you have at least two equal, and opposite outcomes:

1)  Rules-lawyers will stick to it tooth-and-nail, with no hesitation.  That is the Law laid down by Jim, and the Evil Hat dev team, so mote it be.

2)  Non-rules-lawyers will look at it, determine that it puts too much of a limit on the game (if he, or she has other ideas), and choose not to abide by it.


For example (getting a bit off-topic here), I run a Star Wars game and one of my players decides to try to detonate a Black Hole.  For me, this is an idea to play with....  and frankly, I'd allow this to happen, saying 'no, that doesn't work' isn't fun to me.

Does it go against all Laws of Physics as we know them?  Yeah (so far as I know, at least).

Does it matter that it does?  Not in the least.

As long as the game is fun, and everybody is having a good time, do anything you want.  If one of your players comes up with an ingenious idea to skirt around the whole Magic/Technology issue in the Dresden novels, I say run with it...  But thats just me.

The point of all this dribble is this:  Let the books be written, take them for what they are worth.  If you use them as an iron fist, then thats your choice to make as GM.  If you like to twist some stuff around to tell your story within the world of Harry Dresden, go ahead. It's not like anyone is gonna beat you to death with the game books for going off the beaten path.


Sorry for not really contributing much to the whole issue, but I felt a different look at things was needed.

Offline The Last Bean

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Re: Magic and Technology
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2006, 01:00:55 AM »
Quote
It's not like anyone is gonna beat you to death with the game books for going off the beaten path.

.... Clearly you have never played witha  true rules lawyer DM. I have in fact seen a player struck with a DnD book (I believe it was Unearthed Arcana, but I can't remember) but that was more for being an irritating twit than anything else. It was also a blow for democracy. There was a unanimous vote by everyone at the table (via head nods) to use that book rather than the paperback "song and silence" to get his attention.


Oh, right. On topic. Uhm. I think it's worth pointing out that altering living things/mental states doesn't actually seem to be that hard at all in the DresdenVerse. It actually seems to be pretty easy. Necromancy doesn't seem to be that difficult, and that is basically using magical energy to emulate a living body. It has been demonstrated again and again that manipulation of another's mind is both subtle and easy, and a very seductive way to get things done. Also, even people who are essentially non-magic users have been able to complete transformation spells on themselves. (Billy and the Werewolves)

The only reason I don't think we see much transformation or mind manipulation is because they are, in fact, punishable by death. If electricity had been decalred witchcraft and was punishable by stake burning, I think we would have had to wait a lil bit longer for lightbulbs even though they're really a simple concept.

Offline houndrogerson

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Re: Magic and Technology
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2006, 01:25:24 AM »
Quote
It's not like anyone is gonna beat you to death with the game books for going off the beaten path.

.... Clearly you have never played witha  true rules lawyer DM.

heh, I used to be one man.  It took me 6 years to not be so stifling, that I sucked all the fun out of the game.

Anyway, I agree with you.  I just finished reading book 4 again, and I'd have to say that animating dead, building ectoplasmic constructs, or even getting the whole of Graceland Cemetery to start dancing, and playing a mambo looks like it could happen by just getting some spell components wrong.

Offline Star_Controller

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Re: Magic and Technology
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2006, 10:41:18 PM »
I am intrigued.  I hadn't visited this area of the forum much, since I'm not much of an RPG gamer, but the long discussion on tech vs magic is one i've been itching to have/read.  I've never really had a good beraing on how it worked in the dresden-verse, but after reading all the posts, this occurs to me:
  I really like the idea of the understanding == safe for magic users and tech.  Dresden doesn't know circuits, thus a USB drive isn't going to be safe around him dur to unconscious, probability-shifting, mupheyonic field.  Once he understands how something works intrinsicly, then his subconscious control mechanisms that are used for his magic screen out things harmful to that tech.  as long as the wizard wants to.  we have seen at the beginning of death masks how devastating a wizards hex-field can be if a wizard lets it go full bore. 
  I was bothered by the age of the tech being a direct issue of its susceptility, since harry can short out automatic weapons (grave peril) but we've seen wizards the age of ramirez carry *grenades*.   

The understanding angle helps with that issue,  though it does seem more direct with the age of the wizards. 

This is a bumpy issue.  very curious.  i would like to see butter's quantify the particle of magic though.  That would be amusing.  I have faith Butcher will do the issue justice in the books, as he's a sci-fi nerd as well as fantasy.  good luck with the rules ironing.
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Offline Samldanach

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Re: Magic and Technology
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2006, 06:03:01 PM »
Keep in mind that, actually, a grenade is a MUCH simpler piece of technology than an automatic rifle.  It just happens to be a less reliable one, due to the unpredictable length of the fuse.

I've always found it odd that the field strongly affects electronics, weakly affects mechanical joints, and only rarely affects chemical reactions.  So, if a wizard was shorting out a car, he'd probably blow out the alternator, distributor caps, and spark plugs first.  The drive train and transmission would be next, or possibly the CV joint and brakes.  But, it's extremely unlikely that the anti-technology field would cause the compressed gasoline vapors to fail to ignite (assuming the piston and spark plug both worked properly).

And as a reply to The Last Bean, there are numerous explanations throughout the series that affecting the body is extremely difficult, because of how complex it is.  That's why Harry's not a healer.  There's a bit in Fool Moon where he explains why werewolves like Billy can transform themselves, but normal wizards can't.  And, in Grave Peril, his godmother demonstrates her power over him by healing the cut on his forehead.


Offline The Corvidian

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Re: Magic and Technology
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2006, 03:59:50 AM »
Would gunpowder be considered technology?
Clarke's Third Law: Sufficently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Niven's Converse to Clarke's 3rd Law: Sufficently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science.

Offline Thanatos

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Re: Magic and Technology
« Reply #37 on: November 01, 2006, 06:23:32 PM »
I think that it's a matter of belief, just like working magic is. For some reason, wizards have a tradition of not trusting tech to work properly, and so it doesn't. Normal people have a tradition of not believing in magic, so even if Harry walked them through a spell step-by-step, they probably couldn't get it to work. They'd ground out whatever power they managed to raise before they even became aware of it.

Butters is more open-minded than most, after all, he classed the vampire corpses as "humanoid but not human" before he knew Harry. Most doctors would probably try to explain the differences in the bodies as deformities or the effects of disease.

Ramirez is probably a good example of a wizard that is a little more open-minded towards tech. Part of it is his youth, but it may also be something intrisic to his personality that makes him just not worry too much whether tech will fail on him, so by default he trusts it more.

Early on in magical training, an initiate has to believe that all the symbols, words, and strange materials have innate power, and he is just putting them together like a puzzle. Later on, he comes to realize that all those things are just foci, and amount to nothing more than a way to get the conscious, worrying and doubting mind to shut up long enough to let the magic work. The foci are mental toys that get the logical mind to stop asking "but why?" for a while. If you were to reveal that the foci are nothing more than a psychological crutch too early in a mage's training, he probably wouldn't trust in those tools long enough to develop trust in himself.

By the same token, wizards are taught that tech is unreliable, but each one has a different line defining what's "simple" and "complex" tech. A sword could be forged with modern metallurgical techniques that might not have been available before WW2, but it still seems "old", tried-and-true.

I think that game-mechanic wise, there could be a few different options, or ranks of "tech friendliness", and you could spend some of your development points towards that. If Harry is a default, then you could say that if you don't buy or sacrifice any ranks of "tech-friendliness" you're comfortable with things that predate you by roughly two generations (or about twoscore years ;) ). You could make an effort to adapt over time (Ebenezar obviously has, he's around 300 and the fact he can work any motor vehicle is a wonder in itself) by spending experience-based development points on it as well.

If the default rank 0 is about -40 years, then the next rank up could be -20, then 0, then +20, +40, +60 and so on. Normal humans probably default to somewhere around the +60 level if they grew up in a developed country, as that would be about the age where all the "newfangled gadgets" start to seem too mystifying to use. :P

After 5 increments of 20 years each, you could start taking larger steps. Maybe it could increment by 50 years after that? Ebenezar is able to use a truck that postdates his birth by about 200 years, so that would put him at 7 ranks of tech-friendliness, even though he's still using very old stuff by modern standards.

Oh, and on the side topic of generating "shields"...

From: http://www.scansite.org/scan.php?pid=203
Quote
Industrial Force Field
Industrial Case Evidence
An invisible force field has been experienced as a by-product of a particular industrial process in a 3M manufacturing plant in the south eastern United States. This occurred in August 1980 at its polypropylene plant around a large film-slitting machine with usually a temperature of about 80 degrees Fahrenheit with a relative humidity of 75-80%.

David Swenson of 3M Electrical Specialties Division in Austin, Texas was called in to investigate the problems with contamination of wide web film as it was being run at high speed, converted (split) into “film jumbos” with a width of 3’ x 5’ for coating with adhesive to make tape.

The Polypropylene web was 21 feet across – with the film running from one roller up 20 feet to another roller; across 15 feet to a third roller; down 20 feet to a splitter; and was then wound onto two rolls. It formed a huge dynamic “tent”. Swenson was there to measure the static electricity inside the web tent . As he approached the tent, his static field meter recorded a 200kV @ 12” The amount of static electricity was in the Mega volt range. The force that engaged him inside the tent was invisible and impenetrable, certainly making him unable to move further forward.

This was Coulomb’s Forces – the law of static attraction and repulsion – Static Electricity can cause some very strange and often difficult to explain phenomena. It is easily controlled if a commitment is made. This nuisance can be reduced to a non-nuisance level by proper analysis and installation of suitable equipment, at a very low cost.

To get rid of the effects at the plant an induction static eliminator was installed across the web at the unwind. The static electricity was immediately reduced throughout the process to less than 50kV (from MV’s). It was then possible to make measurements in the rest of the area. Additional induction units were also installed at the jumbo wind-up areas, which resulted in less than 5kV at conclusion.

Another link on this: http://www.esdjournal.com/articles/final/final.htm





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Offline deathdeeIer

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Re: Magic and Technology
« Reply #38 on: November 15, 2006, 07:33:05 PM »
everyone seems to be thinking how to shiel technology from magic but what about shielding the wizard from technology. what I mean is we know that a strong energy field surrounds wizards but when that field is depleted as in fool's moon harry had to consentate hard to fry the camera could there be a correlation and if there is could something be designed to suppress that energy field like a magical wrist strap

Offline Samldanach

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Re: Magic and Technology
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2006, 01:46:37 PM »
Hmm.  That should be theoretically possible.  However, I think it would likely also interfere with the wizard's ability to both touch the magic, and to use it to interact with the world around him.  So, in essence, the wizard becomes less able to cast spells.

Of course, if you take that to its logical conclusion, you can make a tech-friendly wrist-strap into a set of wizard-numbing handcuffs...


Offline The Doctor

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Re: Magic and Technology
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2006, 06:02:21 PM »
Would gunpowder be considered technology?

The argument could be made that gunpowder is an alchemical compound.
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Offline Lord Nedd

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Re: Magic and Technology
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2006, 10:33:13 PM »
Would gunpowder be considered technology?

The argument could be made that gunpowder is an alchemical compound.

Yep.  It is part and parcel to the ferromancy that Mab talked about in DB.

-LN
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Offline The Corvidian

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Re: Magic and Technology
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2006, 01:42:44 AM »
Would gunpowder be considered technology?

The argument could be made that gunpowder is an alchemical compound.

Yep.  It is part and parcel to the ferromancy that Mab talked about in DB.

-LN

One man's magic is another man's science.
Clarke's Third Law: Sufficently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Niven's Converse to Clarke's 3rd Law: Sufficently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science.

Offline waywardclam

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Re: Magic and Technology
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2006, 03:05:41 AM »
One man's magic is another man's science.

Not in the Dresdenverse it ain't--I'm pretty sure Harry would tell you magic is a distinct, defineable noun.
But MAYBE Lasciel will try to tempt Harry with the prospect of redeeming HER.
Wouldn't *that* be a powerful scene?

Offline Slife

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Re: Magic and Technology
« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2006, 01:41:38 AM »
Why not magic based technology?

No, really, why not?

A computer doesn't *have* to use electrons and magnetism to represent states.  If you really wanted to, you could make a computer out of tin cans and string or legos.  The two biggest problems with using alternate computer designs are A) a working interface and B) size.  Magic can fix both of these.

If you really wanted to make it foolproof, you could incorporate living creatures as part of the works.  Coral or plankton might be decent components... genetically modified organisms would be even better.


EDIT: link to high-performance flexible organic transistors!
« Last Edit: December 19, 2006, 12:55:16 PM by Slife »
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