Rules for Pets and Allies

[benign]

@degree of control over minions. Fair enough. I can understand the concern about game balance and action economy, and it's legitimate. Personally in my games we would houserule it so that the player controls his minions in order to ease the burden on the GM, but I get that in general it would be a concern. Now we just need a good wording for how much control the player has over their companions.

I like the idea of scaling the minion based on the skill which the stunt applies to. My only concern is that multiple skills seem to apply to different types of companion, for example lore to familiars or resources for professional hirelings. We could allow the player to choose which skill applies to a companion, subject to them convincing the GM that it's appropriate, of course.

So I think what we have agreed on so far is that stunts will govern minions and allies, while we will come up with a power or family of powers that deals with multiple bodies and its various permutations.

[Sanctaphrax]

@degree of control over minions. Fair enough. I can understand the concern about game balance and action economy, and it's legitimate. Personally in my games we would houserule it so that the player controls his minions in order to ease the burden on the GM, but I get that in general it would be a concern. Now we just need a good wording for how much control the player has over their companions.

Hadn't considered the GM burden issue. Anybody know a solution for it that doesn't create balance problems?

I like the idea of scaling the minion based on the skill which the stunt applies to. My only concern is that multiple skills seem to apply to different types of companion, for example lore to familiars or resources for professional hirelings. We could allow the player to choose which skill applies to a companion, subject to them convincing the GM that it's appropriate, of course.

This one's easily solved. Whichever skill the stunt is attached to is the skill you use. Since stunts already have to be appropriate to their skill, the work is done for us.

So I think what we have agreed on so far is that stunts will govern minions and allies, while we will come up with a power or family of powers that deals with multiple bodies and its various permutations.

I think we've also agreed that minions can be upgraded by buying more stunts.

[Praxidicae]

@ Sanctaphrax:

Thanks for the welcome and I apologise to everyone in advance for the very long post.

Regarding bonuses for raising skills through the tiers, there is often a bonus, but the effect it has varies from skill to skill.

In the same way that Wild Talents, Mutants & Masterminds or Champions break superpowers down into component parts that can be welded together to allow players to create various superpowers, Kerberos Club breaks the individual skills down into trappings to a much greater degree than DFRPG or SotC does (Although it also contains the Common 'mundane' skills). It is these individual trappings that are given tier bonuses.

Note: Tiers run through a list of named levels similar to Skill Levels:
(From Low to High)

Mundane
Extraordinary
Superhuman
Ascendant
Godlike

Each tier of difference will replace an additional DF with a D6 (thus although a competition between tiers only 1 or 2 levels apart can be close with weaker combatants winning with luck and the judicious use of aspects, where a high level tier competes with a low level tier it is almost guaranteed a win. (Avoiding a 'Joe Average managed to kill Galactus' scenario, or one in which high powered characters must have insanely large skill pyramids)

As an example of how trappings are applied, the 'Science' skill is made up of the trappings of 'Craft', 'Information', 'Research' and 'Treatment [Physical]'. At "Mundane" (normal) skill level, this allows you to create temporary inventions (given the appropriate time to make them)(Craft), quickly remember useful scientific facts from character memory (Information), research knowledge methodically using an appropriate workspace or library (Research), and treat physical injuries  under medical conditions(Treatment[Physical]) as if you were a Scientific professional.

At "Extraordinary" and higher the trappings gain additional bonuses, for example an Extraordinary Crafter can create inventions which utilize skills at Extraordinary level, and can spend a fate point once per story arc to spontanously reveal a previously undisclosed device that their character had been working on 'off screen', which acts as a piece of Equipment with two improvements. A person with Godlike Treatment can literally raise the dead, making a skill roll vs a Godlike tier target of +10 (so those lovely D6's don't count) to return to life a character who had the taken out condition of death (with the consequence of a rewritten aspect for the restoree - something along the lines of "Looked beyond the Veil of Death" or "Haunted by his own Mortality" might be appropriate)

Each skill can have a number of these 'Tier Benefits' equal to it's skill rating, which are selected at character creation/advancement, as not every trapping has Tier Benefits and not all of those that do have a benefit for each Tier, for skills made up of small numbers of trappings it is comparatively easy to select attached benefits. However if you try to create one 'catch-all' skill with numerous trappings, selecting the bonuses can become more tricky.

One trapping of particular interest for this topic is the 'Minions' trapping. Whilst the 'Companion' gift I mentioned earlier allows the PC to have a permanent follower, the Robin or Alfred to the PC's Batman, the Minion trapping allows the character to call forth temporary allies or duplicates to assist them (text copied below).

Minions:

A skill with this trapping can be used to call forth allies
of some kind—functionaries, bodyguards, supernatural
entities, or whatever else is appropriate to the skill’s theme.
By default, these allies must contacted by ordinary means,
such as a messenger or a telegram, and arrive under their
own power by conventional means. In some cases, this may
preclude their arrival altogether, such as if you’re trapped
in a prison with no way to contact the outside world. To
alter any of these parameters, take the Unusual Extra, once
for each alteration.

With a Fate Point and proper justification, the Minions can
arrive more quickly than would otherwise be considered
reasonable. Perhaps your operatives were already on the
scene, blending with the crowd until needed, or maybe that
crate over there just happens to contain a half-dozen of your
Robotic Soldiers, waiting to be shipped out.
Regardless, Minions cannot be called more than once per
scene, and the allies generated by it disperse or disappear,
as appropriate, once the scene is through.

Roll the skill against a difficulty of Mediocre (+0), and
spend the shifts obtained to produce your Minions. An
Average-quality Minion costs 1 shift, a Fair-quality
Minion costs 3 shifts, and a Good-quality Minion costs
5 shifts. All Minions must be of the same quality.

For 2 skill points, you get Simple Minions. Instead of
giving them skills, simply assign scopes, Physical, Mental,
or Social, according to their intended purpose within the
scene. A scope is a broad skill that covers a variety
of mundane functions. An Average Minion has one scope
at +1, a Fair Minion has one scope at +2 and one scope at
+1, and a Good Minion has one scope at +3, one at +2, and
one at +1.

For twice the cost, 4 skill points, the character can call
on Advanced Minions. These Minions can have full skill
pyramids of one, three, or six skills: one Average (+1) skill
for Average-quality Minions, two Average (+1) skills and one
Fair (+2) skill for Fair-quality Minions, and so on, using skills
instead of scopes. Advanced Minions are more customizable,
but also require more attention from the player to implement.

Each minion has a stress track equal to its quality. An
Average-quality Minion can take 1 stress, a Fair-quality
Minion can take 2, and a Good-quality Minion can take 3.

Minions cannot take consequences—once their stress
track is exceeded, they’re Taken Out. To obtain a
specific ally, such as an assistant or valet,
use the Companion Gift.

During a conflict Minions summoned by a power are
considered to be a single entity, receiving a +1 bonus to
skill rolls for each Minion in a group beyond the first.
Additionally when stress is dealt to a group of Minions it
is dealt to the group as a whole, divide the stress by the
stress track threshold of the minions and drop any
remainder, that is the number of minions Taken Out.

A specialized form of the Minions trapping, Duplicates, can be
used to create clones or identical copies of oneself. See the
sidebar for details. (Details below)

Tier Bonuses:

Superhuman Tier: By rolling the skill against a Superhuman difficulty
of Mediocre (+0), one of the Minions’ scopes or
skills can be upgraded to the Extraordinary Tier.

Ascendant Tier: As Superhuman Tier, but roll against
an Ascendant difficulty of Mediocre (+0) to upgrade one of the
Minions’ scopes or skills to the Superhuman Tier, or two
scopes or skills to the Extraordinary Tier.

Godlike Tier: As Superhuman Tier, but roll against
a Godlike difficulty of Mediocre (+0) to upgrade one of the
Minions’ scopes or skills to the Ascendant Tier, one
scope or skill to the Superhuman Tier and one other to
the Extraordinary Tier, or three scopes or skills to the
Extraordinary Tier.

Duplicates:
This is a specialized form of the Minions trapping,
one that can only be used to create copies of the
character. The duplicates arrive instantly, however
they’re created; for “slower” duplicates, take a Flaw
to that effect. Roll the skill against a difficulty of
Mediocre (+0), and spend shifts obtained to create
duplicates. An Average-quality duplicate costs 1
shift, a Fair-quality duplicate costs 3 shifts, and a
Good-quality duplicate costs 5 shifts. All duplicates
must be of the same quality. The duplicates
have one skill per rating available, as per their
quality (for example, a Fair duplicate has one +2
skill and one +1 skill). Only Strange skills can have
this trapping, and no duplicate can have a skill with
the Duplicates trapping.
A duplicate’s skills are limited to those belonging
to the character, and no duplicate can have a skill
rated higher than the character’s equivalent skill.
For duplicates that are radically different from the
character, such as past and future versions of the
same person, or duplicates called forth from alternate
dimensions, use the Minions trapping instead.

This trapping, if appropriately adapted for DFRPG could produce the Naruto-esque duplication power, a charcter who can summon the lesser fae, or a Tarzan style character who can call upon the creatures of the wild to do his bidding.
I'm not sure how one would go about adding it to DFRPG as a skill. The skill portion of Kerberos Club isn't as straight-cut as SotC or DFRPG, involving a skill creation tree that determines how much a particular custom skill would cost depending on the trappings added (for those who have played the game 'Mutant City Blues' it's a very similar concept to the 'Quade Diagram'). Additionally skills can be altered further through the addition of 'Extras' or 'Flaws'.

Extras add refinement to the skill, Tailoring the abilities it grants in a more specialised way, whilst adding to its cost. Examples include

Psychic: which removes physical exertion from those trappings that imply it, causes trappings such as disguise or hide to represent an enforced mental change on the observer rather than physical transformation, and can allow social or mental trappings to represent Psionic abilities such as mind control, clairvoyance or telepathy. (+1 skill point)

Spray: Adds the Spray effect permanently to the skill. (+1 skill point)

Zone: Causes the power to effect everyone within a zone, allies and enemies alike. (+2 skill points)

Range: Effectively increases the range of a skill. Trappings that normally effect the character can effect others within the same zone, trappings without a range can effect targets within 1 zone and trappings already possessing a range can operate over multiple zones. This allows the representation of Preternaturally keen eyesight, Telekinetic Lockpicking and Mr Fantastic style stretching. (+1 skill point)

Unusual [Specification]: This allows the trapping/skill to operate some non-standard way appropriate to the Skill's theme, or provides some minor additional functionality, it allows the removal of implied gear or preparation from a trapping (such as Disguise + Unusual [Eschew  Materials]= Shapeshifting, or Craft + Unusual [Instantaneous]= Ability to build things instantly). This trapping pretty much allows the creation of most weird and wonderful superpowers like Teleportation, Forcefield Manipulation, Flight or X-Ray Vision. (+1 skill point)


Flaws are the opposite of Extras and impose limitations on a skill for a set skill point rebate. Flaws can be either Minor or Major with a rebate of either 1 or 2 skill points respectively. Examples Include:

Charges: Which limits the number of times a skill can be used to its skill rating. A skill with Minor Charges can be used that number of times per scene, whilst as a Major Flaw this limitation is per Session.

Focus: This externalizes the skill as an item, if the item is removed then the skill cannot be used. To be considered a major flaw the character must have an aspect directly tied to the flawed skill.

Snag: A flaw that imposes a limitation on the powers effectiveness. Ie. cannot effect the colour yellow, only works on animals, only works during the full moon etc. The level of the flaw is dependent upon the rarity of the situation/condition.

Taxing: This skill can only be used at the cost of a fate point (Major)

Thats pretty much a breakdown of the Skill/Power creation of Kerberos Club, If anyone is interested in any further information on the Fate edition of Kerberos Club specifically and Hacking the Fate system in general I can heartily recommend http://spiritoftheblank.blogspot.com/.

I'll take a deeper look at costing out a couple of minions/summoning powers through this method and post them later, though I think that the non-standard costing for skills that this would require might make it a little clunky for DFRPG.

[Sanctaphrax]

Looks like interesting stuff. The Duplicates thing will probably come in handy.

Unfortunately, I see no way to translate skill tiers beyond just giving powers and stunts and skill points.

[benign]

For the record I'm still very interested in getting this done, but Christmas stuff will likely prevent me from doing much to contribute for the next week or so. Keep up the good work everyone, and I'll try to post my thoughts as often as I have the opportunity.

[sinker]

I agree that we should use stunts for pets and allies. Having a magic thing working for you does not require you to be magical. We can use Powers for the multiple bodies thing.

I would worry about this a little bit. Most of the time having an ally with powers is not the same thing as having powers, but there are instances where the two overlap. Consider thaumaturgy, Divination in particular, but really any form of thaumaturgy works. If I hire a diviner to get information for me then I likely must put effort into the ritual and have access to the end result. It is nearly the same as having the power myself. In some ways it is actually better because I don't need to fully involve or risk myself in the ritual. Normally I wouldn't be worried about this if a pure mortal in the know wanted to hire a wizard for some information, but someone spending a few refresh on the concept tells me that they want permanent access to this power, and that they would get it without paying the requisite price bothers me a bit.

[CottbusFiles]

I still think that hiring minions is a valid thing for the Ressource skill. It's not different than buying Armor and a Motoricle. Hiring a Hacker to make this Sholarship/Burglary rolls is not different than hiring a Wizard to make this discipline rolls.

If you limit this than Ressources becomes a lot less powerfull (it is a powerfull skill to beginn with but stil)

[benign]

Hiring minions for a short duration or a very specific task should probably be possible, but at a higher difficulty than if you just had the skill in the first place. So if you needed a hacker to access the information on a stolen hard drive, the scholarship difficulty might be 3 and the resources level needed to hire a hacker would be 5. Also that hireling is only there for the job, and occasionally might have secret motives or incompetence problems. They definitely aren't going to risk their lives or anything else important to help you.

A companion by contrast is invested in the same sorts of goals you are, and will accompany you even into dangerous situations. And while the GM controls the minion completely, you should probably get some say in the type of actions your companion takes.

Speaking of which, how about companions are controlled by the player who purchased them, but the GM gets to compel the companion's aspects for free in order to exert some measure of control himself. The player and the GM can also negotiate certain actions, like whether or not a dog companion chosen by the player would really jump in and help fight the Blampire he is currently fighting.

That gets a little complicated, I know. I think it still needs work. But I'm looking for a way to allow the player to control the companion, both to take the burden off the GM and to give him a little more investment in the companion character. But I also want to limit some things about the companion, so that they aren't as useful as having a second character.

On another note, what happens when a companion dies? Is the stunt refunded? Does the companion get replaced by a suspiciously similar substitute? I was thinking of refunding the stunt, but making the player take a severe social consequence to reflect the blow of losing such a valued ally. Anyone else have an idea?

[Sanctaphrax]

I agree with benign's most recent post on all counts.

I have a proposal for wording for minion control:

"Companions are NPCs and ultimately they are under the control of the GM. But they are assumed to be completely loyal to the player who purchased them, and so barring compels they should obey all semi-reasonable orders.

If controlling a companion becomes burdensome for you as a GM, we encourage you to hand over control of the companion to the player who purchased it. But be aware that in the hands of a clever player this can create a significant increase in power."

It's a trifle wordy, but I think it gets the point across. I think. I'm a bit sleep-deprived here, please tell me if I'm wrong.

I was thinking that companion stunts would become useless when their associated character dies. Hopefully, this won't represent a problem because stunts can be swapped out at all milestones. Thoughts?

[polkaneverdies]

I Like the write up and agree with the stunts being worthless until you can swap them out at a milestone.
I think that will encourage players to treat their companion with a bit more caution and value than they would otherwise do.

[benign]

I like it. It leaves the important decisions to the table while reasonably pointing out the potential pitfalls. I also like the stunt becoming useless if the companion dies, it's a sensible cost that can be swapped out soon enough to not be crippling but is a heavy enough blow to hurt. I think we should also include a line or two encouraging players who lose a companion to think about modifying an aspect to reflect the loss; it should by no means be compulsory, but for certain characters in certain situations it makes sense. Losing your faithful dog or your apprentice would certainly be a terrible psychological blow, and might color your character's outlook going forward.

So do we think that we have come far enough in outlining our goals to revisit the specific wording for companion stunts?

[Sanctaphrax]

Well, if two out of two people like that write up then I suppose we ought to use it.

Only two questions remains before we can start writing, I think.


1. How capable should the minions acquired from stunts be?

Should they get a pyramid of height 1 less than the skill used to buy them? A column of height 1 less than the skill used to buy them? Skill^2 skill points with a cap of 1 less than the skill used to buy them? A pyramid of Good height regardless of the skill used to buy them? Something else?

I'd think I'd prefer something scaled to the buying skill. But beyond that I'm lost.

Oh, and how many points of skills and powers should they get? None? Then how do you get a pet dog? Can you trade in skill points for stunts and powers?


2. How much of a boost should an upgrade stunt provide?

2 refresh? +1 pyramid height? 5 skill points? 1 refresh of powers or 2 of stunts? Something else?

Not just looking for carefully-considered answers here. Throw out your opinion even if that opinion is just the first thing that popped into your head. More answers is better.


PS: Just realized that you can only swap 1 stunt per milestone. We may want to relax that for the guy who sunk 15 stunts into a dead uber-wizard.

[benign]

When you ask for unconsidered, off the cuff answers, then I can certainly supply some.

1. I'm in favor of a pyramid topped by 1 skill at a level 1 below the skill used to buy the stunt. It makes the companion focused but able to buy enough skills to be interesting.

I think that the base stunt should grant no refresh. If your companion simply can't be statted up without addinga stunt or a few points of powers, buy the expansion stunt or save up and purchase it all later. 1 stunt is simply too cheap to grant a companion with both skills and refresh to spend. And lets not get into trying to make some equivalence between skill points and refresh.

2. Upgrade stunts to grant a companion some refresh will certainly be available. I see a two major philosophies for how we should price those.

A) Like an item of power, buying refresh for a companion character is like buying powers for yourself, but with limitations. With IoP the powers are unavailable if you don't have the item with you, and are subject to certain compels based on the nature of the item. With a companion, you don't have access to those powers if the companion is unwilling or unable to lend a hand in a given situation, and they will generally be less skillful at employing said powers than you would be. So buying refresh to be spent by a companion should have some built in refresh refund, just like IoP.

B) Companions break action economy, and that is quite powerful. A companion may also have an entirely different skill focus than you do, granting considerable breadth of capability unavailable to PCs without a companion. Therefore refresh spent by companions should be strictly limited, and the last thing you want to do is grant a refund like you get from IoP. A stunt granting 1 refresh is about what you'd have following this model.

That's just what occurs to me at the moment. I'm currently leaning towards the first companion enhancing stunt offering 2 refresh and later purchases of that stunt yielding just 1, because it seems like that route offers a balance between intersting companions that don't get too powerful. But I could easily be convinced otherwise if I see a good argument in either direction.

I also agree that all stunts that apply to a companion should somehow be up for review if that companion dies. Maybe they are simply refunded, and then reallocated by the player as often as he can make justifications for ways to spend it. The easiest such justification might be to simply find a new companion of about the same power level. But now its late and my brain aint working, so somebody else will probably have better ideas.

[Sanctaphrax]

If the base stunt grants no refresh, then how do you get a pet dog? Do you need two stunts?

Anyway, more opinions wanted.

[benign]

Does a pet dog need to spend refresh? Picking up the Claws power might be nice for it, but then claws gives the equivalent of a weapon 2, which is in the same league as a handgun or a modestly sized sword. Wolves or trained attack dogs might be that powerful in a fight, but a faithful Labrador retriever doesn't need to be so lethal. Of course, if you later train him up to take the fullest advantage of his natural weapons and strength, Claws might be justified . . . but you have to buy a stunt to get there. It all hangs together for me.