How to become a Freeholding Lord?

[Richard_Chilton]

If you refuse to recognize the fallaciousness of your own arguments, or even that the validity (ie. absence of fallacy) of an argument should matter in this debate, then there is no debate, and we are done, here.
Feel free to step back in if you change your mind.

If you refuse to stop attacking the message rather than reacting to the message - then I don't see any ideas being exchanged.

Feel free to step back in if you have an idea to offer.

Richard

[Richard_Chilton]

... but if after that point he can obtain Freeholding Lord Status he's got the protection of the Accords and the Warlock's he's teaching as part of his retinue being 'nobles of his court' also gain that protection.

Okay, I'm at a lost here.

What protections did being a signatory to the Accords offer the Red Court when the White Council committed an act of war against it? Yes, it offered alternatives to war:
1) the White Council could have turned over the criminal for judgement - it did not.
2) a duel of champions could have occurred - but when it was tried the White Court champion's ally shot at the Red Court Champion with a rifle, negating the duel.
In the face of that, what choice did the Red Court have but to fight?

The Accords allow for peaceful interactions between rival nations and give the conditions for honourable war - but once that war is declared you have a gas attack that wipes out everyone in several blocks.  You can have satellites used for orbital bombardment   In short, if the White Council wanted to go to War with the Warlock then what protections would the Accords give him?

But that's the default setting.  If you want to change things up - say include the Accord Peacekeepers who make and enforce the peace - then go for it.

And if you'd like inspiration for that - there's a series of novels (Night Watch, Day Watch, etc) where you have the forces of Light and the forces of Darkness in a peace treaty.  Both sides acknowledge that if they start a war now the World would be destroyed and both side want to wait until they're in a position to win (while stopping the other side from getting there).  They have a formal treaty that spells out everything and it's partly enforced by a neutral agency (one made up of both Light and Dark) - and everything is tit for tat.  And the Good Guys in that series - my god does the White Council have it easy by comparison.  As in who needs wardens when the average Good Guy will go: "Hey - I was about to do a spell that could have killed someone.  What kind of monster am I? I don't deserve to live".

They are great series of novels and really capture the feel of that kind of setting. 

Richard

[Quasispike]

They're 'protections' using the legalistic definition , as the Accords are the supernatural equivalent of an international treaty. Just like I have the protection of the law to prevent theft it doesn't physically prevent you from jacking my S&%T it just gives me a legal recourse for seeking satisfaction (which may or may not actually be satisfying but is used here as a synonym of justice albeit with different connotations).

Furthermore you missed a few, The ability to negotiate under a declared flag of truce, the ability demanded a Weregild, and although it's not specifically stated one could infer that much like large international treaties when a signatory violates them the other nations could impose sanctions.

[polkaneverdies]

You can demand a weregild for a wrongful death, but that wouldn't apply to casualties of war.
 Worst case scenario for the WC in your example would be they have to formally declare war on the nonhuman warlock for violating their political interests(warlock nobles of his court). Then they nuke him. Problem solved.

[polkaneverdies]

Curse you McDonald's wifi lag

[polkaneverdies]

Curses

[computerking]

Please pardon my inexperienced opinion, but in regards to the possibility or impossibility of a faction splintering off from the White Council and gaining Independent Nation/Freeholding Lord status, Hasn't 90% of the footwork for this been done already by the Black Council? It is possible that they have already gained signatures from members of at least 2 factions outside of the Council (Madrigal Raith, representing the White Court, and possibly the two factions of the Fae, Summer for blasting Arctis Tor, and Winter for driving Lily insane or perhaps for that Athame given to Leah), and would only need one more maximum to complete their secession, if that was their goal. I don't know the procedure, but it's possible the signed vouchers can be held onto until the time is right. Which for the Black Council would be right after they destabilized the White Council enough to secede without too much dangerous fallout.

[SunlessNick]

Gifted with power.  They have no power of their own.  Their sponsor can stop supporting them.  Hence they are not mortals with power but mortals borrowing  the powers of others.  -  Richard_Chilton

Then we agree that the difference of kind is valid, and if the warlocks trying to become Accorded Freeholders were sponsored, they would have a claim to be separate from the White Council?

I expect that we might learn the answer to those questions within the next few books.

If nothing else, I suspect that Harry and Elaine will ultimately attempt to have Paranet recognised as a faction.

So we agree that the presented signatories, the peoples and groups who negotiated the Accords, have a vested interest in wording things such that no such subgroup could exist?

Those groups who share the potential to factionalise in such a way (eg the White Court) do, but those who don't have that potential (like the Red Court; the nature of Red Court vampires IMO makes an alternative Red King an illogical prospect) may have a vested interest the other way.  But I'm not sure either of those things means anything, because Mab pretty much imposed them, so she's pretty much the one who worded them.

If they didn't have a legal claim to that then why was the Duel In The Depths permitted to happen?

The situation also involved an internal fight within the White Court, and Lara Raith was never going to let the duel not happen, since Harry and Carlos would be killing two major thorns in her side.  Thus it was in her interest to not to dispute that the victims would qualify as White Council members and thus come under its vengeance.  (I advanced this as a grey area, not a proven hole in the Council's claims; but it's still the case that they're claiming jurisdiction over people they don't recognise as members in any other context).

[knnn]

I do see the possibility of a portion of the WC becoming a separate member of the Accords.

Outright necromancers would probably not be allowed (as pointed out - there would be no point, and everyone would fear them), but I could see group of individuals that felt the Laws should include enforcing "moral laws" (e.g. Maggie Senior in her naive years) splitting from the White Council and petitioning for to become a separate entity.

The White Council couldn't really have any legal beef with them, since they would also enforce the 7 Laws (but do more), and attempts to stop them (short of open warfare) could be stopped by invoking help from other Accords members.  Two conflicting Wizarding groups would certainly be in the interest of many of the other Accords signatories under the general notion of "divide and conquer".

Finally I don't think it has been pointed out, but the Denarians *are* canonically a separate (if minor) Accords faction, despite including certain mortal spellcasters.

[sinker]

To be honest I'm kinda with Richard on this one. If gaining independence under the accords is as easy as getting three signatories on your side and we can admit that signatories would likely be lining up to split up the white council then I see no reason why it would not already have happened given the political and ethical disparity that we have seen within the current white council. Or consider the white council of the past. Can you imagine the pressure of having to remain neutral during the crusades? WWII? All of the wars of the past?

Something else, the circle (or the black council as they are otherwise known) is not a faction within the white council that are looking to split off. They are made up of members of many different factions, such as Cowl (a mortal? wizard who does not consider himself a part of the white council and/or does not participate in it) and Vitto Malvora (a white court vampire). I imagine that they actually put effort into getting members within many organizations so that they can work towards whatever malevolent goal they have. So it's not really a good example of a group within the white council.

[Tedronai]

To be honest I'm kinda with Richard on this one. If gaining independence under the accords is as easy as getting three signatories on your side and we can admit that signatories would likely be lining up to split up the white council then I see no reason why it would not already have happened given the political and ethical disparity that we have seen within the current white council.

Which only indicates that gaining recognition for a splinter faction would be more difficult than doing so for a new one.

[Pbartender]

Now, bear with me, I've only read up to halfway through Proven Guilty, so far.

Which only indicates that gaining recognition for a splinter faction would be more difficult than doing so for a new one.

Something I've been thinking...  Is this actually a splinter group?

In our game, that is starting next week, one of the factions (ancient warlocks) is going to aim to become a Freeholding Lord as its main goal - what does they have to do to get this status?

"Ancient Warlocks"...  They're ancient, so they've been around a long time.   And they're Warlocks, meaning they use Dark Magic and/or have broken one of the Seven Laws.  Also, are they necessarily a part of the White Council?  While the White Council may have jurisdiction over all mortal spellcasters, the novels are full of sorcerers, wizards and warlocks that aren't members of the White Council.

Perhaps this isn't a splinter group?  Perhaps this is a old rival group, previously inconsequential, that is gaining power?  Perhaps it is a brand new group (After all, how often to warlock band together to work as a cohesive group?)

[Richard_Chilton]

Now, bear with me, I've only read up to halfway through Proven Guilty, so far.

There is a bit of Accord stuff near the end of Proven Guilty.  The two books after that (White Night, Small Favors) have more information on the Accords.  Some would say that the 12th book - Changes - is also focused on the Accords.

I'd apologise for all the spoilers I've been posting recently (most of them centred on White Night), but the rules for this board say it's not spoiler information as long it's something in one of the books covered by the RPG.  Until you've caught up with the books and short stories that the game covers you might want to be careful about what parts of Our World you read.

Richard

[SunlessNick]

If gaining independence under the accords is as easy as getting three signatories on your side and we can admit that signatories would likely be lining up to split up the white council then I see no reason why it would not already have happened given the political and ethical disparity that we have seen within the current white council.  -  sinker

No one's saying that its easy, only disputing that it's categorically impossible to the extent that a thread discussing the attempt (note the OP doesn't say anything about them definitely succeeding) deserves to be crapped over.

[Pbartender]

I'd apologise for all the spoilers I've been posting recently (most of them centred on White Night), but the rules for this board say it's not spoiler information as long it's something in one of the books covered by the RPG.  Until you've caught up with the books and short stories that the game covers you might want to be careful about what parts of Our World you read.

Eh... No worries.  Spoilers don't bother me at all.  I'm reading through all books ASAP as research, so to speak, to get ready to run a DFRPG for my gaming group, who've requested it (They've become a bit disenchanted with D&D 4E, and are looking for a change of pace).