Author Topic: PDF vs. book regarding Crafting  (Read 10502 times)

Offline The Mighty Buzzard

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Re: PDF vs. book regarding Crafting
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2011, 02:09:11 AM »
Nod nod.  My wizard has a Brains Over "Boom" aspect that has him almost always setting someone else up with a maneuver or block rather than blasting away.  Any time he has to blast away he's going to get an interesting compel.  Or I can invoke it for added potency on a block/maneuver that I really need to stick.

I dig it because it makes me use my head to come up with new and creative ways to handle a situation rather than the tried and true overpowered Fuego and let all the overage go as Fallout approach.
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Offline Michael Sandy

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Re: PDF vs. book regarding Crafting
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2011, 02:26:46 AM »
There is always the magically inquisitive pixie who investigates the potion carrying characters backpack.

He doesn't do anything harmful.  He doesn't activate any of them.  And he carefully puts the labels back on, and he is Quite sure he put the labels on the same potion bottles they were on originally.

Might want to just do a Lore check before using that potion, just to be sure. ;)

Offline theDwarf

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Re: PDF vs. book regarding Crafting
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2011, 04:36:26 AM »
Right Glove: 10 Water Shield. 4 uses
Left Glove: 10 Fire Shield, 4 uses
Necklace: 10 Spirit Block. 4 uses
Pencil: 10 Earth Maneuver, 4 uses
Ring: 10 Air Blast, 4 uses
7 Potion Slots

OK, so you have 4 direct attacks at power 10, 4 maneuvers at power 10, 8 shields at power 10, and 4 blocks at power 10.  You are not into full Thaumaturgy therefore you do not have the flexibility to summon, bind, conjure, divine, veil, or ward (just craft) nor do you get the +1 craft specialty that extra point yields (which would "negate" one point of refinement so to speak) except for "potions" which the GM could counter to a degree. I think the Thaumaturgy (-3) with craft specialty and losing 4 potion would work ok.  You also do not have the flexibility of Evocation (typically 3-5 spells at "safe" levels or such per scene).  Note that each one of your items/groups would have a pre-defined affect just like a Rote spell, and can not be altered on the fly (which is likely why you saved 7 potions back) therefore you could not the take advantage of having extra Fate Points.  Character with Channeling instead could cast 3-5 spells a scene (which may or may not yield more affects depending on the difference between scenes and sessions) and hit similar power levels, albeit it may be more difficult. Tough character but not quite as overwhelming from that standpoint, basically a basher with a hold-card for flexibility (potions) and physical & mental defenses.  Less impressive in campaigns with multiple scenes per session.
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Offline Becq

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Re: PDF vs. book regarding Crafting
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2011, 11:12:15 PM »
For those who see compels as a good avenue for toning down Crafters, consider that just as *every* Wizard has a High Concept aspect that can be compelled for things like involuntary hexing, *every* Crafter also must have a High Concept that is suitable for compels relating to the risks involved in Crafting.

Lets say, for example, that the Crafter in question has just been thrown against a wall by a Vamp with Superhuman Strength.  He decides to pull out his Magic Pencil (as per the OP example), hoping to use an Earth Maneuver to knock the vamp down, possibly allowing him to escape.  Unfortunately, the GM points out that the pencil was smashed when he hit the wall, and tosses him a Fate point for the compel against his Crafting-related High Concept.  (Of course, the Crafter could buy off the compel.)

I admit I'm not a big fan of the Crafter-only concept for several reasons, one of which is that I think that a character should only have access to crafted magic they are able to cast on their own.  That said, it wouldn't be hard to change the sample powerset in the OP by subtracting one refinement (say one that grants +2 worth of the crafting frequency focus) and using that refresh to upgrade Rituals (Crafting) to full Thaumaturgy.  You'd then use your free specialization for +1 crafting frequency.  Net change is 1 less use per session per item, but access to full Thaumaturgy in exchange.  Another alternative would be to go with "Thematic" Rituals.

Of course, per the rules you don't actually need access to Crafting to be able to have focii and enchanted items.  After all, characters with nothing but Channeling (Fire) still have two focus item slots worth of toys, which presumeably follow the normal crafting rules.  Which means that even if you don't buy into my opinion on limiting crafted items to spells that you can actually cast, it is far more efficient to choose Channeling (Anything) or Rituals (Anything other than Crafting) instead of Rituals Crafting.  You still have all of the same focus item slots, but can do something else with your base magic skill, as well.

Offline Vairelome

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Re: PDF vs. book regarding Crafting
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2011, 02:21:22 AM »
Sure, but the strength of the Crafter concept comes from the Focus Items boosting Strength and Frequency, and applying those bonuses to several enchanted items and potions.  I don't know if it's actually stated anywhere, but I'd got the impression that your FIs were limited to your "elements," meaning you needed Ritual: Crafting or full Thaumaturgy to get the Strength/Frequency FIs.

I could be wrong, in which case a practitioner with Ritual: Ectomancy could have S/F FIs for the purposes of creating more powerful Ectomancy-themed enchanted items and potions.  The tradeoff would be that those FIs don't boost non-Crafting Ectomancy rituals, and the usual limitation that themed Ritual only gets you enchanted items and potions within the theme.

Offline Becq

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Re: PDF vs. book regarding Crafting
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2011, 09:58:04 PM »
Sure, but the strength of the Crafter concept comes from the Focus Items boosting Strength and Frequency, and applying those bonuses to several enchanted items and potions.  I don't know if it's actually stated anywhere, but I'd got the impression that your FIs were limited to your "elements," meaning you needed Ritual: Crafting or full Thaumaturgy to get the Strength/Frequency FIs.
Good point; I agree.  So to get crafting spec bonuses, you need Ritual (Crafting) or Ritual (Any Theme) or Thaumaturgy (All).  You are limited to spell effects you can create, so Ritual (Crafting) would need to be paired with Channeling or Evocation to do anything.  If you don't have any of the above options -- ie, you have Channeling (Any), Evocation (Any), or Ritual (not Crafting), then you can't buy crafting specializations and are limited to basic crafting only.

EXCEPT.

If you look back to the OP, he was getting crafting bonuses from focus items, not specializations.  Which is legit, though there's still the issue of having no spellcasting capabilities to apply to crafting.

Offline Vairelome

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Re: PDF vs. book regarding Crafting
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2011, 11:35:09 PM »
Good point; I agree.  So to get crafting spec bonuses, you need Ritual (Crafting) or Ritual (Any Theme) or Thaumaturgy (All).  You are limited to spell effects you can create, so Ritual (Crafting) would need to be paired with Channeling or Evocation to do anything.  If you don't have any of the above options -- ie, you have Channeling (Any), Evocation (Any), or Ritual (not Crafting), then you can't buy crafting specializations and are limited to basic crafting only.

EXCEPT.

If you look back to the OP, he was getting crafting bonuses from focus items, not specializations.  Which is legit, though there's still the issue of having no spellcasting capabilities to apply to crafting.

I think you misread what I wrote?  I was ONLY talking about Focus Items (FIs), not specializations.

The point I was unsure about was whether someone with Ritual: Ectomancy could create and use a Focus Item that boosted Crafting Strength or Frequency, or whether he was limited to his "element" and could only create and use Focus Items that boosted Ectomancy Complexity or Control.

Offline Becq

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Re: PDF vs. book regarding Crafting
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2011, 12:45:00 AM »
Ah, right; let me regroup in this way.

The way Crafting (ie, obtaining a focus or enchanted item for a caster character) is built into the rules, Crafting (the subset of Thaumaturgy) is largely irrelevant.  Per RAW, you gain access to FI/EI simply by having a power that provides slots: Channeling, Ritual, Evocation, Thaumaturgy, or Sponsored Magic.  If you have only Channeling (Fire), for example, you still have two FI slots and can fill them as desired, despite not having Ritual (Crafting) or Thaumaturgy.  And such a character could make new items at the relevant milestones, which implies that all spellcasters can Craft items, with or without the Crafting portion of Thaum.  There are no RAW limits placed, so presumeably a Channeling (Fire) caster could have a focus that adds +1 to offensive spirit spells, though it's hard to see why they would do so, since it has no value for them.  But they could also have one that adds +1 to crafting frequency, and that *would* benefit them, since it affects any slots they have.

That's the RAW, or at least my interpretation of them.  So the non-crafter casters that you mention in your examples would be able to have crafting focus items.

That said, whether or not I'm correctly interpreting RAW, I disagree with that way of handling things; I don't think it makes sense.  Instead, I think that all casters should be able to make focus/enchanted items that fit within their spellcasting abilities.  So while a Channeling (Fire) caster could make a firebolt wand, or a focus that improves his fire channeling, he could not make an item that uses spirit effects.  And while any caster has a capability to create magic items within their speciality, crafting focii fall within Thaumaturgy (Crafting) and should only be allowed to those with access to that aspect of magic.

Note, by the way, that the example you gave is a special case.  Thematic Thaumaturgy specifically includes all functional divisions of Thaumaturgy as they relate to the Theme.  So Ectomancy includes Crafting, but only with respect to the theme, and an Ectomancy could have a crafting focus because of that (though I would argue that the focus would only work for Ectomancy, even if someone else were to gain control of it).

So again, per the RAW, I think there are no explicit rules to say you can't make any item you want; so that Ectomancer you mentioned not only could have a crafting focus, but could use it to craft an (improved) wand of fire bolts.  But I think that's an oversight.

Offline theDwarf

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Re: PDF vs. book regarding Crafting
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2011, 06:38:28 AM »
Has anyone mentioned that for the OP's example to be valid the character would have to have a Lore of 7?

(p.280:  item's crafting strength with all bonuses added (extra frequency is a bonus) = or < 2x Lore)

Therefore if Lore is 5 then max power would be 10 (usable 1x/session) and max power usable 4x/session would be 7.

At least how the player of the Alchemist (Crafter) in out game read the sentence on p.280 c1 paragraph 2.
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Offline Vairelome

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Re: PDF vs. book regarding Crafting
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2011, 09:31:00 AM »
Has anyone mentioned that for the OP's example to be valid the character would have to have a Lore of 7?

(p.280:  item's crafting strength with all bonuses added (extra frequency is a bonus) = or < 2x Lore)

Therefore if Lore is 5 then max power would be 10 (usable 1x/session) and max power usable 4x/session would be 7.

At least how the player of the Alchemist (Crafter) in out game read the sentence on p.280 c1 paragraph 2.

No, the OP's math was correct.  Extra frequency is not a bonus to crafting strength; those are separate things.  You may sacrifice a point of strength to gain an extra use/session, but that's the only direct interplay between the two stats.

Crafting Strength is equal to the sum of your Lore, your Crafting (Strength) specialization bonus, your Crafting (Strength) Focus Item bonus, and the number of extra EI slots spent on Strength, minus the number of Strength points sacrificed to gain extra uses/session.  This total is capped at 2x Lore.

Uses/session is equal to one plus the sum of your Crafting (Frequency) specialization bonus, your Crafting (Frequency) Focus Item bonus, two times the number of extra EI slots spent on Frequency, and the number of Strength points sacrificed to gain extra uses/session.  This total is theoretically uncapped, but since you can spend mental stress to fuel enchanted items that have run out of uses/session, I think most people stop around 4-6 uses/session.

Offline computerking

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Re: PDF vs. book regarding Crafting
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2011, 02:45:33 PM »
There's a lot of over-my-head stuff going on, but I wasn't sure if it was mentioned that Thaum (all) crafters don't need Evocation to make any effect EI's, since all effects of Evocation can be duplicated with Thaumaturgy anyway.
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Offline Vairelome

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Re: PDF vs. book regarding Crafting
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2011, 07:55:32 PM »
There's a lot of over-my-head stuff going on, but I wasn't sure if it was mentioned that Thaum (all) crafters don't need Evocation to make any effect EI's, since all effects of Evocation can be duplicated with Thaumaturgy anyway.

Yes, and by the RAW, the same is true for practitioners with only Ritual: Crafting.

Offline theDwarf

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Re: PDF vs. book regarding Crafting
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2011, 04:42:03 AM »
No, the OP's math was correct.  Extra frequency is not a bonus to crafting strength; those are separate things.  You may sacrifice a point of strength to gain an extra use/session, but that's the only direct interplay between the two stats.

Crafting Strength is equal to the sum of your Lore, your Crafting (Strength) specialization bonus, your Crafting (Strength) Focus Item bonus, and the number of extra EI slots spent on Strength, minus the number of Strength points sacrificed to gain extra uses/session.  This total is capped at 2x Lore.

Then one of the better potential limiters is lost IMO.

I will have to consider what you have stated, go over it with my friend who is doing the Crafter, and figure out what the rules seem to be telling us before we bring what you have opined up with our GM.
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Offline Vairelome

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Re: PDF vs. book regarding Crafting
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2011, 10:46:28 AM »
Then one of the better potential limiters is lost IMO.

I will have to consider what you have stated, go over it with my friend who is doing the Crafter, and figure out what the rules seem to be telling us before we bring what you have opined up with our GM.

If you feel the need to house-rule a limit on dedicated Crafter characters, there are several options available.  Including Frequency points under the 2x Lore cap would be one of them, but it's definitely not RAW.  I think the RAW are sufficiently balanced in this regard, but I don't play at your table, so my opinion there doesn't count for much in your game.

One of the consequences to your proposal is that Crafters have an effective cap of Lore to the total of their Strength + Frequency bonuses, rather than Strength capped at Lore and Frequency separately capped at Lore.  In every other case, Power, Complexity, and Control bonuses are separately capped at Lore.

If you doubt my interpretation of the RAW, feel free to check the other threads on Crafting, there are rather a lot of them.  All I can say is, to the best of my knowledge, what I wrote is the common understanding of the forum on this subject.  Also, whether it's RAW or not, what works at your table works at your table.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: PDF vs. book regarding Crafting
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2011, 04:41:35 PM »
If I were looking to nerf Crafting, I'd probably do it in one of the following ways:

1. Remove the existence of crafting foci. You know how YS says you can't make a focus that helps you make foci? Extend that to enchanted items.

2. Remove the existence of the frequency specialization. You can exchange a point of power for a use anyway, which effectively means that nobody takes frequency until they've maxed out their power. This has the side benefit of removing the odd situation where, for a dedicated Crafter, sacrificing slots in order to give one item more uses provides less uses then simply duplicating the original item.

Neither of these houserules actually reduces the power of Crafting directly. They just limit how much a character can invest into the field. Which is good, because Crafting seems to be fairly balanced when the Crafter is not hyper-specialized.