Author Topic: Question about Inhuman Strength  (Read 14963 times)

Offline gojj

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Question about Inhuman Strength
« on: August 29, 2011, 08:03:27 PM »
Specifically my question pertains to: "Superior Strength. Whenever using your Might to modify (page 214) another skill, it always provides a +1 regardless of the actual comparison of your Might score to the skill in question" (YS 183). This means it would stack with the +2 stress also included with Inhuman Strength when attacking somebody with physical force, correct? Because by its definition it seems like Might would always modify Fist rolls when attacking someone, well almost always, I imagine if your character was more about finesse than brute strength it might not. But say I roll straight up on my Fist attack and get a Great (+4) and I have Inhuman Strength, would the total stress (assuming the opponent rolled a mediocre defense with no armor) be 6 or 7? Can I modify my fists with Inhuman Strength and receive the +2 stress from Hammer Blows in the same attack? And if I can would I have to dictate how my Might helped me or would it just be assumed that if I punch a guy my Might would come into effect?

Offline EdgeOfDreams

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Re: Question about Inhuman Strength
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2011, 08:06:54 PM »
If only for game balance reasons, no, you should NOT allow Might to compliment Fists, even with Inhuman Strength.  The power already does enough by making Fists and Weapons users do more damage without making them more accurate as well.

Offline wyvern

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Re: Question about Inhuman Strength
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2011, 08:38:04 PM »
Answer: maybe.

Logically, it makes sense for might to compliment fists (or weapons) for some fighting styles.  The game balance of allowing that, though, is questionable at best.  And, while I don't generally consider the stats in OW as being necessarily correct, it's worth noting that none of them list their attack bonus as including a bonus from might complimenting their attack skills.

That said, I'd allow it if you've spent a stunt on being able to do such a thing; I'd probably phrase it as something like:
"Hammer Blows: you may compliment fists or weapons attacks with might (when appropriate to the weapon in question), as long as your target is defending with either fists or weapons and not using a combat style designed to counter strength advantages."
So, if your target is just trying to dodge?  That extra strength doesn't help.  If you're using a crossbow?  Extra strength doesn't help.  If your target is a martial artist who's taken the time to assess your style and taken to using techniques designed to turn that strength against you?  Extra strength doesn't help.  But if it's just some ordinary warrior type who's foolish enough to think they can block your attacks?  Bam.

I'd also be tempted to allow it in the case of using a breakable weapon; if your choices are "attack with no bonus" or "attack with bonus and risk the GM compelling you to break your weapon / hand / whatever", that's a potentially interesting choice.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Question about Inhuman Strength
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2011, 09:42:17 PM »
Probably not.

Would you give a +1 bonus to Fists attacks to a mortal with Might 5 and Fists 4?

I don't think so. Fists is assumed to include that stuff.

PS: Compels are not bad things, so using them as a balancing factor seems like a bad idea to me. Sorry, wyvern, I had to say it.

Offline gojj

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Re: Question about Inhuman Strength
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2011, 09:48:58 PM »
Ok, so it sounds like the bonus to Might modification was meant more for stuff like breaking and entering (modifying Burglary).

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Question about Inhuman Strength
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2011, 09:54:01 PM »
Sure, or jumping a chasm with a hundred pounds of gear strapped to your back.

Offline wyvern

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Re: Question about Inhuman Strength
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2011, 10:11:49 PM »
Would you give a +1 bonus to Fists attacks to a mortal with Might 5 and Fists 4?
Subject to the same limits I mentioned before?  Certainly.  Although in that case, a more appropriate stunt might be one that just shifts the attack trapping from fists to might.

PS: Compels are not bad things, so using them as a balancing factor seems like a bad idea to me. Sorry, wyvern, I had to say it.

Compels are not bad things for the game.  They're not necessarily even bad things for the player; I know I've had fun coming up with self-compels for various PCs I've had.  They are, pretty much by definition, bad things for the character, however - and thus not completely unusable as a balancing factor.

Consider: When presented with a compel, you have a choice: either accept and gain a fate point, or buy it off and lose a fate point.
Now, in the buy-it-off case, it's obvious that the PC is not coming out ahead; the player has lost a resource that could have been used to the PCs benefit later, and the character gains nothing that wouldn't have been the case without the compel.
However, the PC *also* comes out behind when accepting the compel.  Why?  Well, let's consider what a fate point can do: For the context of a single roll, a fate point used to benefit you grants plus two.  A compel, by contrast, triggers an automatic failure at a minimum, and often triggers failure plus something else bad - like a broken weapon, or a missed fire blast setting the building on fire, or any spell hexing delicate equipment that you needed to take intact...  So even an accepted compel is still overall detrimental to the PC; a +2 is worth less than an automatic failure that doesn't even allow a roll.  And that's before you consider that a compel can easily go all the way up to triggering what might normally be a concession or even a take-out result.

Now, where the PC comes out ahead is when they've picked out the right aspects and are getting a compel to do something they would've done anyway - like a heroic type getting a fate point to go running towards the sound of screaming in a back alley.  But that's not the case in this suggestion; a broken weapon isn't something that would've just happened without fate points getting involved.

Offline ways and means

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Re: Question about Inhuman Strength
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2011, 10:22:10 PM »
I probably would support a stunt to qualify this but it does makes sense especially with weapons (your strength determines your speed with heavy melee weapons).

Here is one of my homebrew stunts relating to this issue.

Overpower (might)-You have learnt to use your overpowering might in melee combat to your best advantage, attacking faster and stronger.  You can use your might skill to compliment your weapons attacks in close quarter combat (no throwing) whilst wielding a two-handed weapon.

 
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Offline devonapple

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Re: Question about Inhuman Strength
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2011, 10:29:35 PM »
I think we are all on the same page by now, but just to make a rationale from the other direction: it would be a serious hindrance if all Fists checks were, be default, modified by Might because that would punish anyone with a Might lower than their Fists skill.

Ultimately, Might is for carrying, breaking and moving stuff; Fists is for hitting skillfully and forcefully enough to hurt someone.
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Offline ways and means

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Re: Question about Inhuman Strength
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2011, 10:47:19 PM »
I have the Mas Oyama opinion of fighting  "in an equal fight between two equally skilled opponents the stronger fighter will win". So it makes sense from my opinion to modify fist with might, it also makes sense in my opinion it also makes sense for a fist fighter with zero might to be at a disadvantage.  You might argue disadvantage the ancient grandmaster but I reckon they would have stunts for fighting stronger opponents.

Murphs sparing in Ghost stories also seems to support that strength will be the determining factor between equally skilled opponents.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 10:55:25 PM by ways and means »
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Offline Arcteryx

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Re: Question about Inhuman Strength
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2011, 05:41:12 AM »
I had this question pop up in my game, I decided not to allow Might to complement Fists, and I haven't had cause to regret it.

Offline Todjaeger

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Re: Question about Inhuman Strength
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2011, 07:06:25 AM »
Quick answer would be 'No' Inhuman Strength does not provide a +1 due to using an application of Might to aid Fists.  For explanation see bottom paragraph.

The Might trapping Wrestling can also be used for hand to hand combat with people.  Or as occurred during a convention one-shot, a bunch of Icelandic werewolves ended up Wrestling with neo-Nazi cultists, and after successfully grappling with them with Inhuman Strength: Bruising Strength causing some rather messy... results.

Something which I think people might need to keep in mind is that a high strength (Might) does not make it any easier to hit someone/something, since strength does not aid accuracy (Fists) but would potentially increase the amount of damage when a punch connects.  So when attempting to punch someone, the difficulty/test is a 4dF + Fists skill vs. whatever sort of defense the target has or puts up, again brute strength does not make a punch any more accurate or likely to hit, so Might provides no help in hitting.  Therefore if the Fists skill +4dF roll meets or exceeds the difficulty of the defense, the target takes the difference between the two in shifts of Stress.  Once the actual punch has connected with the target, here is where having a high strength is beneficial, but this is already covered under the trapping Hammer Blows under Inhuman Strength for +2.

Again the Discipline, Fists, Guns or Weapons roll to attack someone is all about how accurate, or how well, the target is hit with extra shifts of stress due to shifts of success indicating something sensitive or important being hit.

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Offline Haru

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Re: Question about Inhuman Strength
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2011, 08:02:37 AM »
It is a straight up no for me, might does not complement fists, and I wouldn't even allow a stunt to do so. The "I am stronger so I should hit harder" part of strength powers is already covered, everything else would be double dipping. If you want to fight with might, I suggest going for a grapple.
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Offline Vairelome

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Re: Question about Inhuman Strength
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2011, 08:03:35 AM »
Once the actual punch has connected with the target, here is where having a high strength is beneficial, but this is already covered under the trapping Hammer Blows under Inhuman Strength for +2.

I can see how Inhuman Strength is useful once the blow has landed, but in your simulation, the guy with Might at +0 and the guy with Might at +5 perform precisely the same, with or without Inhuman Strength.  I don't see how that squares with "having a high strength is beneficial."  Naturally, it should matter when an Inhumanly Strong creature punches someone, but I wouldn't think Might +5 ought to have no relevance whatsoever.

Offline ways and means

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Re: Question about Inhuman Strength
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2011, 09:56:58 AM »
I look at it like this what does high strength mean to melee combat.

Fist
Hard to block - A high strength should provide a bonus against any attempt to physically impede it.
Hard to parry - Same argument as above, it makes no sense for someone with 0 might to be able to parry someone with mythic strength,

Weapons
Hard to block
Hard to parry
Faster - Melee weapons can be moved faster with high levels of strength (this is especially true with heavier melee weapons) which means they should be harder to dodge.  If it is harder to defend against someone with physical strength that is the same thing as plus accuracy in this system.
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